Are the Ulster Protestants a "separate nation"?

[Starkadder]

While reading SJ Connolly's excellent "The Oxford Companion to Irish History", I noticed an entry on the
the "Two Nations Theory"-the idea that Ulster Protestants are a separate "nation" and this was
the cause of the conflict between Nationalists and Unionists. The book notes the idea first appeared
in the book "Ulster as It Is" by the Unionist writer T. MacKnight. (It must have caught on
among the Unionists, hence John Redmond's famous speech about "The two-nation theory is to us
an abomination and a blasphemy." )

The idea later re-appeared
in the book "The Irish Border as a Cultural Divide" (1971) by the Dutch geographer M.W. Heslinga,
and in the pamphlets of the British and Irish Communist Organisation around the
same time.
Elsewhere, I noted that Tomas Mac Giolla in the early 70s criticised in the Ideas of the B&ICO, Desmond Fennell,
and Conor Cruise O'Brien for advocating a "two nation theory" that he claimed justified partition.

Do you agree or disagree with this interpretation of the Ulster Unionist Community?

[Jim236]

This topic has been discussed to death: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=33837

[Starkadder]

This topic has been discussed to death: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=33837

Not quite. This is a specific argument put forward by several named thinkers (Heslinga, the
B&ICO, Fennell, etc.) I'd like to know whether people think their ideas are valid or not.

[joel]

Are the Irish in Britain a seperate nation or not?

[FutureTaoiseach]

They see themselves as such. They are a usual reminder of how ethnic-groups can continue to cling onto the identity of their ancestors and not assimilate - a useful lesson in the context of mass-migration and the need to control it today. Or else we'll probably have a second partition.

[Starkadder]

As I see, no, the Ulster Protestants are an ethnic group, not a nation. But I have been researching the history of Northern
Ireland recently and it's amazing how often the phrase "two nations theory" keeps cropping up-for instance in the
book "Ideology and the Ulster Question" by Paul Bew states that Bonar Law used the theory to argue against
Home Rule (p64), it also turns up in John Whye' "Interpreting Northern Ireland" and JJ Lee's "Ireland, 1912-1985."


So it's obviously a key part of the Unionists' weaponry in the Battle of Ideas.

[Sidewinder]

As I see, no, the Ulster Protestants are an ethnic group, not a nation.

They aren't even that.

The populace of the north is thoroughly mixed at this stage, though everybody denies it. There's plenty of Prods in my ancestry on both my mother's and father' side, and plenty of mixed marriages in the current generation if you only go out as far as second cousins. And this is typical of nearly every family in the north. There is no "ethnic" division. We are One....north and south.

Also, just look at certain prominent aspects of "Unionist culture", and you'll see that all of them are quintessentially Irish.

Marching and marching bands, for example, an ancient Irish tradition going back to the Brehonic era, that only fell out of favour amongst Nationalists over the last century. Politics: the DUP is Fianna Fáil in so many ways it is uncanny (and old-style Big House UUP very similar to old-style Big House FG). Even the religious mania is something Nationalism only got over about 15 years ago, though we like to pretend otherwise. The family clannishness, the territorialism/local clientelism. And on and on.

Unionists are as Irish as you can get. They desperately try to pretend otherwise at present, though this is IMO just as much a reaction to the mental trauma of Partition as all the other psychoses riddling Nationalist politics. Upon Partition, northern Unionism was suddenly cut off from huge chunks of their own heritage and identity (Loyal Irishmen, Dublin as second city of the Empire, etc etc) and had to make do with a makey-uppy "Norn Irn" faux-heritage they are still struggling to make into a coherent identity to this day.

Two Nationism is just an intellectually bankrupt fuzzy load of wibbling nonsense, designed by grovelers to excuse the continuing existance of a deeply un-natural state of affairs - Partition.

You can't clean up the steaming pile of dung if you refuse to admit the elephant exists.

[Halo]

As I see, no, the Ulster Protestants are an ethnic group, not a nation. But I have been researching the history of Northern
Ireland recently and it's amazing how often the phrase "two nations theory" keeps cropping up-for instance in the
book "Ideology and the Ulster Question" by Paul Bew states that Bonar Law used the theory to argue against
Home Rule (p64), it also turns up in John Whye' "Interpreting Northern Ireland" and JJ Lee's "Ireland, 1912-1985."


So it's obviously a key part of the Unionists' weaponry in the Battle of Ideas.

They once saw themselves as irish, ‘pro british’ irish nonetheless, eg Irish unionist party, irish rugby team, orange order[ headquarters in dublin] Irish tory patriotism, college green and the men of 82, all very much irish men and irish protestant institutions.
This idea of a two nation theory is incredulous nonsense and has been proven as much by many historians, albeit those without specific agendas. ulster unionism was about securing and affirming their religion, identity and power over the majority . As home ruled beckoned, partition, reluctantly to some, was their only safeguard although obviously those in the 26counties were left behind.
Many unionists at the time considered, incorporating parts of donegal, monaghan and cavan into the new statelet. Some wanted parts like s armagh and s fermanagh to stay with redmond or the free state. All sorts of ludicrous ideas were put forward whilst this imaginary border was being drawn up. In the end unionists took what they could [ most people in their position would have i believe] although it was solely the decision of the british government in the end were these borders would be drawn. Not some some historical or mythical idea of two nations.

[JCSkinner]

Why stop with Ulster protestants? I demand nationhood for Leinster Jews, Munster Muslims and Connacht Catholics too.

[Halo]

Why stop with Ulster protestants? I demand nationhood for Leinster Jews, Munster Muslims and Connacht Catholics too.

Ah feck it, why stop there, sure the SDLP should have set up the peoples republic of s down in the 80's