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  1. #481
    Ireniall Ireniall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by paeder55 View Post
    In regards to pollsters and polling the reality is that no-one I know off has been polled whilst I have also not heard of anybody on this site for instance who also come from a nationalist background say any different.
    With respect you obviously, do not know what really occurs in the 6 counties, their are many dirty tricks departments and faceless people especially tied to the British state and the political world who can and will muddy the waters for whatever reasoning to suit any Political agenda.
    Am I being overly cautious or even paranoid? Maybe! But maybe you would also have this frame of mind if you have had to endure and seen 30 years of conflict and mistrust and also read about the many faceless dirty dealings that was once inflicted onto our community by the British State etc, etc.

    As for a UI and economics? as I am no economic's nerd, like some on this site, which is not a bad thing by the way, I will give my simple and modest opinion.
    Surely the island as a whole would benefit greatly with one economy, plus having all public services under one common umbrella can also surely not be a bad thing.
    If Politic heads and common sense got together which some might think would be asking to much of our Political servants, this island as one would have a lot to offer not only to the Irish people but to the outside world. This I am convinced on.
    As for Nationalist or Unionist business men, they are not as numerous as one would like to believe today, which has been mainly due to a devastating recession and the influx of large British supermarket chains. The large supermarkets such as Tesco's and Sainsbury's and Asda have not helped local small businesses by no stretch of the imagination. In fact many town centres in the six counties resemble ghost towns. Many local and small businesses have now closed down and who were once thriving businesses, which has been mainly down to this big supermarket influx taking their once trade.
    In fact, local councils have given these once now closed business premises a free face over, so as to artificially make their town centres look inviting, which is basically a lie, as behind the pretty falseness lies many small businesses that have simply gone to the wall.
    Yes of course I don't know as much about the north as the actual northerners and indeed I'm sure that those in positions of responsibility in NI would be terrified by the prospect of a virtually unanimous Catholic population waiting for some Protestant somewhere to pop his clogs so that they could vote NI into a UI on the spot. Clearly this would be a very destabilising situation so that it might well be imagined that some well meaning people in the civil service or some other service might ensure that the results are skewed a little in the interest of putting the hugely contentious issue of unity on the long finger until things have settled down. Because I feel that any attempted UI in the next twenty years would mean a re division of Ireland with a separate independent state in the NE. But if you're going to do that(skew the polls) I think you would not attempt to get the kind of results that are coming out as it would raise the very kind of suspicions we are talking about. In any case I don't think for a second that you could keep this sort of thing secret for very long. No MLA that I'm aware of is suggesting it either.

    I'm not that well up on the economic arguments either and I've read the other posts on here with interest. I would be very close to Castle Ray in his opinion of Thatcher who to me was an absolute necessity because of crackpot left wing governance which allowed trade unions to destroy the UK economy but CR made one point that is really important. In response to Glaucons post above he mentions the fact that there are always peripheral areas in all countries which are less well developed and are supported by the rich parts. One must take the country as a whole-all true. But Glaucons point of course is that the whole of NI will always be peripheral in the UK while as part of a UI there is every possibility that large areas of it will be part of the core just as it was before partition. I think that this sort of thing is feeding Scottish unease with the union too. If I was Scottish I would be a Unionist but I would not like the fact that my countries economy was based in England. I believe that an all-island economy is definitely the way forward here but as has already been pointed out a political UI will not be essential for this. But it may well be a help in the long run. Btw those closed business premises are very much a common sight here in the south too-but not in Dublin it has to be said or indeed in the other bigger centres.
    Last edited by Ireniall; 24th March 2014 at 11:53 PM.
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  2. #482
    NorthernIrish6 NorthernIrish6 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swords Hoopster View Post
    Chinese?
    You hungry?
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  3. #483
    Ireniall Ireniall is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma Variations View Post
    Germany can. It still has nine shipyards. Germany has always prioritised manufacturing. Invariably it delivers better wages.
    We need a mix of manufacturing, ICT, tourism, agriculture, creative arts and tradeable services as priorities in NI. Reliance on one would be folly.
    As it happens I worked in the last shipyard which was operated in Belgium-over twenty years ago now, jayses I'm getting old. What an absolute c**t of a job. There was just a constant din from workers battering steel plate into place with sledges and cutting and grinding with angle grinders and such. When it rained there were sheets of cold water coming down in places and the gangways had safety side plates which held the water and meant you were walking around in two or three inches of it for the day. Then there was the acetylene cutting. There was always a guy with a kind of large scoop on a handle who waited on the other side any steel wall that was going to be cut for whatever reason. He would move everyone out of the way and put his scoop up to catch the red hot steel streaming out from the cutting. It worked well except that occasionally they would miscalculate where it was breaking through and maybe find themselves in the wrong cabin or whatever and whoever might be under it might get a bit of a hot shower. The first time it happened to me I was lucky to be with an experienced guy. 'Don't look up he shouted ' as we scurried out of the way. Throw in the welding fumes and the rest and I think we're all as well off that there's none of it left here. Maybe modern methods have improved the process nowadays. Totally irrelevant post -sorry.
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  4. #484
    O'Sullivan Bere O'Sullivan Bere is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle Ray View Post
    Agree.

    The UK and Republic of Ireland just cannot compete in the Shipbuilding Industry with cheaper Asian manufacturers. Thatcher cannot be blamed for that. Whilst Thather's policies moved the UK onto more reliance services and onto what is described as the knowledge economy with intellectual property, the global economy changed and NI didn't change quick enough with it. The Antrim Science Park was the first effort into "hi-tech" but at the time we had a terrorist insurgency which the government did its best to keep NI from plummeting into civil war. The economy wasn't the priority although the government tried plenty whilst NI was in turoil. One thing Thatcher did which saved 5000+ manufacturing jobs is she privatised Shorts which at the time the vast majority of NI people were against but who now look back and think it was a good thing.

    We need a mix of manufacturing, ICT, tourism, agriculture, creative arts and tradeable services as priorities in NI. Reliance on one would be folly.
    Indeed. I would add that mechanical engineering is still an important part of a strong capitalist First World democracy. Obviously shipbuilding was one aspect of that, and I'd agree that's not where the money is right now, but none the less, the 'Chinese' excuse is overplayed given most First World powerful nations keep up with other aspects of it (hence why they steal the tech). Cheap labor in China likely has finite existence too. Few societies thrive too long with robber baron style exploitation, whether that's by private industry or governance. In fact, for the latter, eventually that costs them their power, if not their heads.

    Ireland has a strong IT skill set amongst its population, one credit I give to the ROI's foresight, and its not like NI folk haven't schooled and/or worked in it there and elsewhere. Getting a piece of the action is good for NI, and IMO, good for anyone who wants a UI or a UK or is neutral on it, because either way NI will benefit going the direction it wishes to go over time, and better yet, be a sought after commodity rather than a perceived head case and charity case.
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  5. #485
    O'Sullivan Bere O'Sullivan Bere is offline
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    Outstanding substantive high quality post IMO. This is precisely the kind of stuff that should be discussed at Stormont and amongst the NI public first and foremost. Couple points I'd narrow on the UI issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle Ray View Post
    There is an island economy that needs to be leveraged. There is also an islands economy that is interdependent and integration needs to continue. This however does not mean that any state in Ireland has to change its constitutional position to improve the economy or well-being of its citizens. That argument just doesn't correlate.
    It does, though. Whenever there is a border issue, it creates competition and political divides that are reduced within one system. Take MMG and others complaining about remarks awhile back about shopping 'patriotic', i.e., don't shop across the border. You're always going to have politicians looking out for their own constituency in any system, but it's a whole new divisive dynamic when it's regarding someone in another system. They don't wheel and deal by necessity within a system. It's easier within a system to wheel and deal with each other against another. Then there's lobbying effects. I like to use mobile telecommunications as an example of that. It gives firms like O2 and vodafone a chance to double their money, and beyond that, there's people who will always seek advantages in playing one off the other in a divided Ireland for a quicker buck. It's certainly harmed border counties plenty and will continue to do so. Then there's the issues of regulations and their costs. If one cuts regulations that in turn cut costs, that gives advantages in a race down the safety ladder and other things. There's also the double costs, double paperwork, double regulations, etc, that weigh down commerce. It's stuff like this that will remain a concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle Ray View Post
    . . . Peripheral areas in all countries are an issue when it comes to economic development. Look at the unemployment map for Donegal and the western counties in RoI, where all this control is supposedly so close to home. The reality is that in RoI, the wealth is centred on Dubin with Galway and Cork getting the scraps, whilst most other places are fuct. NI joining RoI has nothing to suggest that it will improve due to economic development of a Dublin-centric state.

    . . .

    I just don't buy into this NI would have more control in a UI state than it does in the UK, by giving away our control to RoI on day to day matters, and gaining a bigger but still minority influence in a state that doesn't have the same benefits to be controlled. It just doesn't stack up.
    Galway and Cork do fine. In fact, my da being from Co Galway, had I had the Galway of my youth, I may still be at home today...it's that good. Even cities like Limerick have rebounded. Towns are usually well run and have business. Infrastructure is really good now...hell, as a kid I'd have laughed if someone ever said the ROI's roads were better than the north's but it is today, and it's pretty sound. Despite the knock of the CT--which like most 1W economies were running hot on cheap money and all took a hit--it's still a strong 1W society. It's not the country of my youth, that's for sure.

    Donegal did get left back, but the border had much to do with that and still does. It was geographically isolated being mostly surrounded by NI except for the sliver of the Ballyshannon area coastline with the Troubles, severely handicapping ability to link it up with the rest of the ROI. Even with that over, it's still locked up and away. Take the A5 road project...still floundering around (and with NI objections how it benefits them versus than the ROI, which it should to broader thinker). As you know having said it before, Derry City really was the 'capital' of Donegal and they fed each other, and the Troubles really harmed that, and the existence of the border still complicates it.

    Many areas across rural NI have likewise taken the hits. Where's the dual carriageway to Derry for example? There's also the consideration that rural speaks for itself. Naturally more money and investment is going to focus on places like the Belfast metro areas than in, say, south Fermanagh. Same for the Dublin metro area than, say, central Offaly. Rural folk often don't even want their own areas highly developed. If they did, they'd move to such areas. Those that stay like it that way. The border can hinder development of tourism of these areas, though. For example, I've always felt the Fermanagh Lake District and the Donegal/Leitrim sea/surf/fish aspects have high draw potential but the border claptrap and short sighted politicians hamper it.

    Insofar as PULs in Leinster House, they'd be a minority but a major wheeler dealer king maker in it given the system. They would also become instant economic allies with all the people of Ulster, and that would be a very powerful block, one divided up right now in several parts geographically, system wise, tribal wise, etc. It would add immediately the second largest population and industrialised base to Ireland, and that also carries huge weight, etc. It's also one easily linked with the Dublin area. If anything, that should worry other parts more than the large population base of eastern NI.

    You mentioned broadcasting and telecoms. It's actually really good in the ROI with a mutitude of media. That includes British but an extensive native one too. In fact, on phones, they're even on 4G now whereas that's lagging in NI and the competition drives competitive rates. There's Irish and British companies involved, so it's not like the ROI is going to lose British business. If anything, they're better 'friends' on that now, growing ever closer linked yet having substantive controls.

    Post? Ugh, don't even get me started on that one. It's comparable IMO, but still way over what should be copied from the US. In the US, they use junk mail to halve the costs of what's paid to An Post or Royal Mail for example. That issue has far more to do with management than government division. But even then, An Post got clever going after loss of mail due to email by starting their own telecom.

    Foreign policy is a mixed bag of blessings and curses. I'm not a fan of the ROI's neutrality policy when it comes to things like authorised UN military missions and such, but going to Iraq wasn't a big hit either. The US does most of the real heavy lifting and dirty work in this area anyway. Look at Norway for example. It's for UN and NATO stuff, but doesn't get mired down on misadventures. Its citizens aren't easier targets by being big magnets for Big Fella global politics, yet live very successfully. Ireland is a small island...it's never going to be the big muscle. What it can and does do is provide, insofar as the ROI, is good peacekeeping measures and works as a 'cleanface' go-between for warring parties. That's useful stuff. IMO, a compromise approach can be helpful, as I always admired and was thankful for seeing Ulster troops in Afghanistan for example post 9-11. After all, AQ kills British and Irish citizens too.

    Overall, though, and I'm just touching on some things there without detailed arguments, but I agree that NI needs to get on its own feet first. It's one thing I like about Alliance and some fledgling parties....quit with the tribal politics and Irish Question talking points and focus on getting NI on its feet and right in the head first. As you said, over time, the people of NI will make their own decision on that, and it will happen over time anyway. If there's ever a UI, it will happen quietly as a fait accompli by consent IMO and making sense if and when ready for it, and that means the ROI and UK being ready too. It's not just the economics right now, but mentally NI has to heal itself first and clean up the tribal and Trouble related baggage. That's going to take time before minds can even settle to be more objective about the whole thing IMO.
    Last edited by O'Sullivan Bere; 25th March 2014 at 08:56 AM.
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  6. #486
    O'Sullivan Bere O'Sullivan Bere is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle Ray View Post
    Change is not possible unless Northern Ireland starts working and stops relying on state dependency.
    Again, spot on. This is an absolute killer. Investors hate this and the reasons why, and adding that to tribal BS, that also drives off investment.

    NI needs a skilled working population with a strong private sector. What's utterly embarrassing, or at least should be, is the amount of 'water cooler' private conversations where so many British want to dump it whilst so many ROI people refuse to take it unless it gets this straightened out.

    Remember the old phrase the "Protestant work ethic"? WTF happened. The RCC also drummed the work ethic message too and trained their congregants for it in schooling and church teachings. Irish diaspora both Protestant and Catholic were instrumental in developing 1W nations where we've gone like the US, Canada, Britain, Australia, NZ and elsewhere, so it's not like it's not in the Irish DNA to be big achievers.

    The massive public sector IMO permits people to do the bare minimums because they don't get paid to perform to their potential. Moreover, try firing lazy employees. Hell, bring their poor work ethic up, and now it's paid leave for causing them 'stress' and such. People have union abuse clocked that way. What's the payoff for working extra hours and doing well? A promotion? No, sorry, you have to put your name in after publication to everyone. Half the time some insider gets it, or someone fearing you'll expose the lot of them, so you'll get passed over.

    Another gimmick is finding work horses with good work rates to become 'perm temps'. They don't matriculate so it looks good for budgeting. If they want to keep their contract just to get paid, they have to work like a dog to earn it every 6 months for so for an extension. Meanwhile, plenty are enjoying the soft life.

    There's more examples as you know, such as people with a stake in Big Government even sabotaging private industry attempts (your Invest NI experience) but it's 'survival of the unfittest' all too often, and the worst part is that it causes massive brain drain from NI. People go elsewhere, realise that their work ethic and skill sets acquired are worth more and go further, and that investment in their education and raising winds up benefiting others elsewhere.
    Last edited by O'Sullivan Bere; 25th March 2014 at 04:36 PM.
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  7. #487
    O'Sullivan Bere O'Sullivan Bere is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by paeder55 View Post
    . . . Surely the island as a whole would benefit greatly with one economy, plus having all public services under one common umbrella can also surely not be a bad thing.
    If Politic heads and common sense got together which some might think would be asking to much of our Political servants, this island as one would have a lot to offer not only to the Irish people but to the outside world. This I am convinced on.
    As for Nationalist or Unionist business men, they are not as numerous as one would like to believe today, which has been mainly due to a devastating recession and the influx of large British supermarket chains. . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Glaucon View Post
    . . . Nationality is covered in the GFA and its clauses will remain in force within a United Ireland. My community has no feeling whatever for the British Army or its blood-stained history, I do, however, feel an aching sadness for young men in that army sent off to die needlessly in illegal foreign wars. This does not happen in the Republic . . .
    I'm getting a flavour here that we'd collectively be 'nicer' on such things. Maybe, but I see it another way than the perceived gist here.

    IMO, a UI offers an opportunity for Irish people to ameliorate SCREWING themselves and others by putting us in a collective pact for Ireland and her people's sake, which we've been experts at doing at home and abroad too. We're no more holier than thou than anyone else, as the Troubles, Celtic Tiger collapse and other gombeenism, NI public sector and ROI social welfare abuses, etc, often demonstrate.

    I'll offer a loose example. Take the Young Ireland leaders banished to Australia who later escaped. Everyone knows who Thomas Meagher and John Mitchel were amongst them. Those two fellows were instrumental in the establishment of the Tricolour that later became the ROI's flag.

    . . . Thomas Francis Meagher publicly unveiled the Irish tricolor at a meeting in his home town of Waterford, Ireland on March 7, 1848. The flag was flown from the headquarters of Meagher’s “Wolfe Tone Confederate Club” at No. 33, The Mall, in Waterford. Meagher informed the Waterford meeting that the flag was being shown for the first time. John Mitchell, referring to the Irish banner which Meagher had presented said: “I hope to see that flag one day waving, as our national banner.” . . .
    songsandstories.net Blog Archive What’s the History of The Irish National Flag? A Story from this Month’s Issue of the Ohio Irish American News

    Orange and Green united...great idea, and they believed it. They fought for it, were willing to die for it, got banished for it, and argued for it in exile in America and even later at home again in the case of Mitchel.

    The sad note to those two is that Mitchel decided he wanted a Plantation with slaves whilst in America. His liberalism got corrupted by that convenient greed and "exception" to his lofty aims. He sought divided governance to accomplish that by supporting the Confederacy, a movement that killed more Americans--and huge numbers of Irish--all for the cost of it. The price he paid? He saw one of his Irish born teenage sons--who paid the price of his Irish patriotism on the run across the globe--gunned down in Pickett's Charge at the Battle of Gettysburg on the eve of American Independence Day itself. He was fired upon in part by Meagher's Irish Brigade with buck-and-ball shot along with other Union Irish brigades, e.g.,

    The Irish Regiment that Ended “Pickett’s Charge”: Gettysburg July 3, 1863 : Columns : Long Island Wins

    Birth: unknown
    Newry
    County Down, Northern Ireland
    Death: Jul. 3, 1863
    Gettysburg
    Adams County
    Pennsylvania, USA

    Private Willie Mitchel lies in an unmarked grave in Gettysburg scarcely a hundred yards from the high water make of Pickett's Charge, at Gettysburg, bearing the regimental color of the illustrious 1st Virginia Infantry (which was founded by Patrick Henry before the Revolution and once was commanded by Colonel George Washington).

    Family links:
    Parents:
    John Mitchel (1815 - 1875)
    Jane Verner Mitchel (1826 - 1899)
    . . .
    Pvt Willie Mitchel ( - 1863) - Find A Grave Memorial

    Grieving Irish Union troops assisted Irish Confederate troops to originally temporarily mark his spot with "Pvt Willie Mitchel, son of Irish Patriot" but today it now lies unmarked and lost right in the battlefield itself.

    Inasmuch as the Irish community in the US and Ireland grieved for him on that, I instead agree with this summation by a Northern paper in that war as follows:

    . . . Willie Mitchel’s death in Confederate service appeared to have united in mourning many Irish in the North and South as well as at home in Ireland. Many wished to extend their condolences to Willie’s highly respected father. This did not go unnoticed by the rest of the Northern press. Frank Leslie’s Illustrated Newspaper recorded on 24th October:

    The Irish papers mention with peculiar regret the death of John Mitchel’s youngest son, William, aged only 17, who fell fighting for the Rebels at Gettysburg. He was, by all accounts, a noble youth, and has evidently been sacrificed to his father’s insane desire to possess a plantation. Seldom has a man been more heavily punished for his apostasy than John Mitchel.’ . . .
    In Search of Willie: Seeking John Mitchel’s Son After Pickett’s Charge | Irish in the American Civil War

    Heavily punished for his apostasy indeed, especially by losing yet another son elsewhere in that war that earned him nothing but dead sons, except it followed everyone else too with consequences.

    It's this kind of thing, this departure for personal ends and other human defects, that has long plagued the Irish people with special zeal and penalty. We've been on the good sides of many things, but the bad ends too. Political disunity has also been heavily linked to a heritage of ethnic and religious disunity, economic self-service, etc. These cancers have to be rectified to manageability. It's no secret that it's been behind the Troubles and strife in Ulster for centuries, been behind the public sector state of NI, welfare and gombeenism in the ROI, clericalism and class governance, divisive internal games within Ireland and within Ireland's two jurisdictions, etc. The poor and average joes aren't exempt either with their fair share of lazy spongers and game players with two systems on one island that reward wrongdoings on that end too. It's dysfunctional, and Ireland pays the price of it.

    Unity offers a chance to set the conditions for the people of Ireland to make it in their own collective interests to do well for each other, with better eyes on each other for the cheaters and game players and maladjusted, etc, to keep the collective good front and centre. Give such types more wiggle room, and the more divisive they can be for their own good rather than the people of Ireland. I'd argue that NI politicians on both alleged sides have long made the best of that divisiveness by a divided Ireland and within NI itself for their own ends, that's for sure.
    Last edited by O'Sullivan Bere; 25th March 2014 at 05:35 AM.
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  8. #488
    Glaucon Glaucon is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernIrish6 View Post
    The majority of APNI are soft Unionist, without a doubt. All of them want a working and 'shared' NI, securing NI long term. Lo is definitely in a minority, especially with the language she used. Her comments dont represent some shift in their policy, they've always been pro NI which is de facto Unionist. I don't think she could back her comments up at all, they made sure to remove any notion she was a 'nationalist', even though she made it clear she sees NI as 'colonial'.

    A bit of a blunder, will damage her vote amongst Unionist constituencies , where every single alliance assembly seat is.
    In Unionist constituencies, Nationalists break in large numbers for Alliance. This comment will do her no harm at all in that sector. She knew what she was doing when she made the comments. The Alliance need to break out of their current electoral hem (greater Belfast) and looking toward the West, soft Nationalist votes are crucial.
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  9. #489
    Dublin 4 Dublin 4 is offline
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    What are the odds on Lo winning now & what are the odds on Naomi since Lo's doublespeak?

    "I want to see the Union Jack flying every day and don't see a UI in my Lifetime but I support a UI".

    Sounds like something from "Give my head peace".

    Great to see the prods self-destruct again though - away out & "save Ulster" by paintin a few kerbs- ya jokers
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  10. #490
    Lord Talbot Lord Talbot is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernIrish6 View Post
    The majority of APNI are soft Unionist, without a doubt. All of them want a working and 'shared' NI, securing NI long term. Lo is definitely in a minority, especially with the language she used. Her comments dont represent some shift in their policy, they've always been pro NI which is de facto Unionist. I don't think she could back her comments up at all, they made sure to remove any notion she was a 'nationalist', even though she made it clear she sees NI as 'colonial'.

    A bit of a blunder, will damage her vote amongst Unionist constituencies , where every single alliance assembly seat is.
    Yes Alliance could be decribed as mostly soft unionist, but there's definitely room in there for soft nationalism. If (big if) a border poll revealed a majority in favour of a UI, I believe Alliance and their voters would support that decision. In contrast to UUP and especially DUP who I feel would still try to wriggle out of it.
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