IRA's psychological effect on unionists/loyalists

[ballot stuffer]

poppys commemorate as far as i recall the battle of the somme in WW1 or possibly Verdun where the advancing English soldiers supposedy pciked bunchs of poppys that were growning profusley at the side of the road on their way into battle and certain death.

Yes, poppies relate to WW1 and particularly those battles which made up the Battle of the Somme.

However, to claim that it was just 'English' soldiers involved shows the kind of blinkered view taken of WW1 by many Irish people. Leave aside the 36th Ulster Division (as you no doubt will) but there was also the 16th Irish Division, made up mainly of Catholics and Nationalists from both the north and south of Ireland (as it was then).

Mind you - if you'd prefer to ignore the slaughter of Irishmen in world war 1 then that's a matter for you. The fact that English soldiers may have picked poppies is obviously a good reason to reject it as a symbol of remembrance.

Of course it also must make nationalists/republicans feel sooo good thinking about us poor prods. Deliberately distorting history simply to suit one particular outlook on life and ignoring the rest may not entirely be the preserve of one group of people - however you're going to have to start doing your own coming to terms with reality - something ulster prods have actually gone a long way towards doing.

i think i'll leave the distortions of history up to you.

in my view any irishmen who served in a foreign army that was and is occupying by force part of the national territory are no better than traitors and should be excoriated as such.

the irishmen who died in english uniform in the world wars were traitors all in my view.

we have an army here that serves this country. was that not good enough for them?

the only honourable irish men who served in the english army were those like Cathal Brugha who left that army to join the irish army and lead the resistance to the english occupation at that time

in fairness without the training that the enbglish army provided to key leaders of the ira who were ex english army soldiers it's unlikey that the IRA would have been able to fight the english crown forces so effectively in the war of independance....

so thanks for that.

Thats a revisionist point of view. The Irish republic didn't exisit in when world war 1 started. There is no sense saying they were fighting for a foriegn force when they were in effect fighting for their country.

Carson's Cat is quite correct that many irishmen from the whole country fought in this war. However bitterness from the war of independance and the civil war meant it was shameful secret, effectivly airbrushed from our history.

You only have to look at Tom Crean's experiences to see the attitudes of the day.

[Briongloid]

[quote=ballot stuffer]

poppys commemorate as far as i recall the battle of the somme in WW1 or possibly Verdun where the advancing English soldiers supposedy pciked bunchs of poppys that were growning profusley at the side of the road on their way into battle and certain death.

Yes, poppies relate to WW1 and particularly those battles which made up the Battle of the Somme.

However, to claim that it was just 'English' soldiers involved shows the kind of blinkered view taken of WW1 by many Irish people. Leave aside the 36th Ulster Division (as you no doubt will) but there was also the 16th Irish Division, made up mainly of Catholics and Nationalists from both the north and south of Ireland (as it was then).

Mind you - if you'd prefer to ignore the slaughter of Irishmen in world war 1 then that's a matter for you. The fact that English soldiers may have picked poppies is obviously a good reason to reject it as a symbol of remembrance.

Of course it also must make nationalists/republicans feel sooo good thinking about us poor prods. Deliberately distorting history simply to suit one particular outlook on life and ignoring the rest may not entirely be the preserve of one group of people - however you're going to have to start doing your own coming to terms with reality - something ulster prods have actually gone a long way towards doing.

i think i'll leave the distortions of history up to you.

in my view any irishmen who served in a foreign army that was and is occupying by force part of the national territory are no better than traitors and should be excoriated as such.

the irishmen who died in english uniform in the world wars were traitors all in my view.

we have an army here that serves this country. was that not good enough for them?

the only honourable irish men who served in the english army were those like Cathal Brugha who left that army to join the irish army and lead the resistance to the english occupation at that time

in fairness without the training that the enbglish army provided to key leaders of the ira who were ex english army soldiers it's unlikey that the IRA would have been able to fight the english crown forces so effectively in the war of independance....

so thanks for that.

Thats a revisionist point of view. The Irish republic didn't exisit in when world war 1 started. There is no sense saying they were fighting for a foriegn force when they were in effect fighting for their country.

Carson's Cat is quite correct that many irishmen from the whole country fought in this war. However bitterness from the war of independance and the civil war meant it was shameful secret, effectivly airbrushed from our history.

You only have to look at Tom Crean's experiences to see the attitudes of the day.[/quote:16rk7t5p]


they were traitors serving a foreign government.

anything else is revisionism.

these men shouldn't be commemorated in this country in any shape or form.

[ballot stuffer]

[quote=Briongloid]

poppys commemorate as far as i recall the battle of the somme in WW1 or possibly Verdun where the advancing English soldiers supposedy pciked bunchs of poppys that were growning profusley at the side of the road on their way into battle and certain death.

Yes, poppies relate to WW1 and particularly those battles which made up the Battle of the Somme.

However, to claim that it was just 'English' soldiers involved shows the kind of blinkered view taken of WW1 by many Irish people. Leave aside the 36th Ulster Division (as you no doubt will) but there was also the 16th Irish Division, made up mainly of Catholics and Nationalists from both the north and south of Ireland (as it was then).

Mind you - if you'd prefer to ignore the slaughter of Irishmen in world war 1 then that's a matter for you. The fact that English soldiers may have picked poppies is obviously a good reason to reject it as a symbol of remembrance.

Of course it also must make nationalists/republicans feel sooo good thinking about us poor prods. Deliberately distorting history simply to suit one particular outlook on life and ignoring the rest may not entirely be the preserve of one group of people - however you're going to have to start doing your own coming to terms with reality - something ulster prods have actually gone a long way towards doing.

i think i'll leave the distortions of history up to you.

in my view any irishmen who served in a foreign army that was and is occupying by force part of the national territory are no better than traitors and should be excoriated as such.

the irishmen who died in english uniform in the world wars were traitors all in my view.

we have an army here that serves this country. was that not good enough for them?

the only honourable irish men who served in the english army were those like Cathal Brugha who left that army to join the irish army and lead the resistance to the english occupation at that time

in fairness without the training that the enbglish army provided to key leaders of the ira who were ex english army soldiers it's unlikey that the IRA would have been able to fight the english crown forces so effectively in the war of independance....

so thanks for that.

Thats a revisionist point of view. The Irish republic didn't exisit in when world war 1 started. There is no sense saying they were fighting for a foriegn force when they were in effect fighting for their country.

Carson's Cat is quite correct that many irishmen from the whole country fought in this war. However bitterness from the war of independance and the civil war meant it was shameful secret, effectivly airbrushed from our history.

You only have to look at Tom Crean's experiences to see the attitudes of the day.

they were traitors serving a foreign government.

anything else is revisionism.

these men shouldn't be commemorated in this country in any shape or form.[/quote:31oocj6b]

How was it a foreign government when at the time it was their government?

[cain1798]

Mind you - if you'd prefer to ignore the slaughter of Irishmen in world war 1 then that's a matter for you. The fact that English soldiers may have picked poppies is obviously a good reason to reject it as a symbol of remembrance.

Well it comes down to what we're remembering. I certainly do remember the slaughter of Irishmen in WW1, but I don't take pride in the fact that it took place. I might admire the courage of the soldiers as individuals, as I would the soldiers of most armies, but I feel angry that Irishmen were duped into fighting a war that was of no concern to their country and I also, as it happens, feel sorry that Englishmen were duped into fighting a war of no concern to their class.

If I wear a poppy, am I remembering the bloodshed and slaughter of pointless imperialist wars waged to oppress peoples around the world, or am I taking pride in it? Am I glorying in it? Am I pretending that dead British and Irish soldiers in Egypt or Aden, Malaya or the Somme, Belfast or Delhi, died for something worth dieing for?

I see it as the latter. If other people see it a different way that's their business and I respect that position. What really irks me though is the notion among some of our self-loathing liberals who think wearing a poppy is a progressive, nay radical, act. But who would refuse to wear a lily, or any symbol, to honour our own dead who died for the independence of our people. A cause worth remembering far more than the cause of denying other people their independence.

[Carson's Cat]

It shows the level of bitterness which there is amongst some people that they're prepared to label people who fought in the First World War as 'traitors' simply because they happened to be in the British Army.

It's a disgrace which has never been fully recognised that these men returned from a war and were made to feel like traitors. Had they not went and fought then events in Ireland later on might have all been a bit academic....

Frankly its a bit rich telling unionists to accept things when you have people in the Republic who refuse to give any credence to remembering these men who went to war. You only have to look at the story of Willie Redmond to see how ludicrous the whole thing is.

[A guy called Dave]

Are there versions of Poppy Day/Remembrance Day in other European countries that were under threat from or invaded bythe Nazis in WW2/'The Emergency'?

Yes France has Bluet de France, the Blue Cornflower. Poppies and Cornflowers are both flowers of the field. The British chose the poppies as their symbol and the French chose the cornflower as a symbol for France.

[raff]

It shows the level of bitterness which there is amongst some people that they're prepared to label people who fought in the First World War as 'traitors' simply because they happened to be in the British Army.

How do you just happen to be in the British army? They made a concious decision to help the forces of occupation, ipso facto you are a traitor I feel sorry that they allowed themselves to be pawns in another county's war I don't envy them their deaths or their subsequent disgrace. Do you think that young British Muslims should be honoured for joining Al-Qaeda?

[Briongloid]

[quote=ballot stuffer][quote=Briongloid]

poppys commemorate as far as i recall the battle of the somme in WW1 or possibly Verdun where the advancing English soldiers supposedy pciked bunchs of poppys that were growning profusley at the side of the road on their way into battle and certain death.

Yes, poppies relate to WW1 and particularly those battles which made up the Battle of the Somme.

However, to claim that it was just 'English' soldiers involved shows the kind of blinkered view taken of WW1 by many Irish people. Leave aside the 36th Ulster Division (as you no doubt will) but there was also the 16th Irish Division, made up mainly of Catholics and Nationalists from both the north and south of Ireland (as it was then).

Mind you - if you'd prefer to ignore the slaughter of Irishmen in world war 1 then that's a matter for you. The fact that English soldiers may have picked poppies is obviously a good reason to reject it as a symbol of remembrance.

Of course it also must make nationalists/republicans feel sooo good thinking about us poor prods. Deliberately distorting history simply to suit one particular outlook on life and ignoring the rest may not entirely be the preserve of one group of people - however you're going to have to start doing your own coming to terms with reality - something ulster prods have actually gone a long way towards doing.

i think i'll leave the distortions of history up to you.

in my view any irishmen who served in a foreign army that was and is occupying by force part of the national territory are no better than traitors and should be excoriated as such.

the irishmen who died in english uniform in the world wars were traitors all in my view.

we have an army here that serves this country. was that not good enough for them?

the only honourable irish men who served in the english army were those like Cathal Brugha who left that army to join the irish army and lead the resistance to the english occupation at that time

in fairness without the training that the enbglish army provided to key leaders of the ira who were ex english army soldiers it's unlikey that the IRA would have been able to fight the english crown forces so effectively in the war of independance....

so thanks for that.

Thats a revisionist point of view. The Irish republic didn't exisit in when world war 1 started. There is no sense saying they were fighting for a foriegn force when they were in effect fighting for their country.

Carson's Cat is quite correct that many irishmen from the whole country fought in this war. However bitterness from the war of independance and the civil war meant it was shameful secret, effectivly airbrushed from our history.

You only have to look at Tom Crean's experiences to see the attitudes of the day.

they were traitors serving a foreign government.

anything else is revisionism.

these men shouldn't be commemorated in this country in any shape or form.[/quote:4v4bhfti]

How was it a foreign government when at the time it was their government?[/quote:4v4bhfti]

a foereign government imposed by violence and force is not a legitimate government at all.

the french resistance in WW2 could tell you that.

real irishmen never accepted the legitimacy of english rule in ireland...

unlike quislings and benedict arnorlds like yourself...

[A guy called Dave]

It shows the level of bitterness which there is amongst some people that they're prepared to label people who fought in the First World War as 'traitors' simply because they happened to be in the British Army.

How do you just happen to be in the British army? They made a concious decision to help the forces of occupation, ipso facto you are a traitor I feel sorry that they allowed themselves to be pawns in another county's war I don't envy them their deaths or their subsequent disgrace. Do you think that young British Muslims should be honoured for joining Al-Qaeda?[/quote]
Eh?

[Briongloid]

It shows the level of bitterness which there is amongst some people that they're prepared to label people who fought in the First World War as 'traitors' simply because they happened to be in the British Army.

It's a disgrace which has never been fully recognised that these men returned from a war and were made to feel like traitors. Had they not went and fought then events in Ireland later on might have all been a bit academic....

Frankly its a bit rich telling unionists to accept things when you have people in the Republic who refuse to give any credence to remembering these men who went to war. You only have to look at the story of Willie Redmond to see how ludicrous the whole thing is.

these men WERE traitors

Redmon was the biggest traitor and scoundrel of all.

he conned irish volunteers into fighting for england on the basis that if they helped england in its hour of need england would then honour their promise to introduce home rule in ireland.

of course as we now know the english government never intended to honour that promise and redmon knew that damn well thereby conning thousands of dupes into dying for nothing...

traitors all.