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  1. #91
    Breadan O'Connor Breadan O'Connor is offline

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    dead soldiers

    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL MEYER
    [



    Still at it eh, concealing the truth about the SAS war dead?
    As far as I know, the British Army has admitted only about 6 or 7 SAS KIA in northern Ireland. I'm not sure if they've admitted any FRU/14th intelligence KIA at all.

    Phoenix magazine (I'm not kidding), had a story a couple of years ago saying there was a memorial at the SAS base in Hereford to dead regiment members. Apparently those killed in Northern Ireland came to over 20. The Phoenix website is pretty difficult to search
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  2. #92
    LordWestBritofKingstown LordWestBritofKingstown is offline

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    Re: dead soldiers

    [quote=Breadan O'Connor]
    Quote Originally Posted by "PAUL MEYER":3u8qx3e2
    [



    Still at it eh, concealing the truth about the SAS war dead?
    As far as I know, the British Army has admitted only about 6 or 7 SAS KIA in northern Ireland. I'm not sure if they've admitted any FRU/14th intelligence KIA at all.

    Phoenix magazine (I'm not kidding), had a story a couple of years ago saying there was a memorial at the SAS base in Hereford to dead regiment members. Apparently those killed in Northern Ireland came to over 20. The Phoenix website is pretty difficult to search[/quote:3u8qx3e2]


    Officially only two members of the SAS were KIA. But normally in NI, SAS members operated under the command of 14 INT, hence others killed had their original regiments name given.

    14 INT was part of the the army intelligence corps.

    I know that there were also female members of 14 INT killed in NI.
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  3. #93
    PAUL MEYER PAUL MEYER is offline

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    Re: dead soldiers

    [quote=Breadan O'Connor]
    Quote Originally Posted by "PAUL MEYER":8euqo4ps
    [



    Still at it eh, concealing the truth about the SAS war dead?
    As far as I know, the British Army has admitted only about 6 or 7 SAS KIA in northern Ireland. I'm not sure if they've admitted any FRU/14th intelligence KIA at all.

    Phoenix magazine (I'm not kidding), had a story a couple of years ago saying there was a memorial at the SAS base in Hereford to dead regiment members. Apparently those killed in Northern Ireland came to over 20. The Phoenix website is pretty difficult to search[/quote:8euqo4ps]

    I'm pretty certain that only two SAS soldiers have been reported killed in NI, Westmacott and Slater, I don't know where you get a figure of 6 or 7 from. There have been several other deaths of what we might call "undercover" soldiers reported however, I can't recall the names but weren't two killed in a confrontation following which a top IRA man was wounded and captured, Francis Hughes perhaps? I remember it because one of the two was originally from a Cavalry regiment which struck me as unusual at the time. I would suspect that these two were from 14 Int. There have been no casualties in FRU however, unsurprisingly given that their role was not about gun-battles and ambushes.

    As for the Phoenix figure of "over 20" SAS casualties in the graveyard at Hereford this strikes me as just plain ludicrous to be honest. Firstly, I have it on very good authority that there are only about 30 SAS graves in the cemetery, not counting the plaques for the 15 killed in the Falklands, nearly all when a Wessex crashed into the sea. So that leaves 30 say, to cover all operations since about 1950 or so when the modern regiment was re-formed, including accidents (parachuting, diving,mountaineering, live firing etc etc of which there are more than a few. Given that the Regiment at full strength numbers less than 300 and that there were never more than 12 men (a Troop) in NI at one time, I'd suggest that 20 casualties in NI is not realistic. Anyway, if Phoenix had stumbled upon such easily obtainable evidence of a cover-up then why didn't the reporter simply jot down the names, location and date of death of each man and cross check it with the MOD's list? In fact why hadn't somebody else stumbled across years ago?

    I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that.
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  4. #94
    PAUL MEYER PAUL MEYER is offline

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    Actually, I've just "Wicki-ed" Francis Hughes and it appears he was the one I was referring to above. The dead soldier was a L/Cpl. David Jones and his colleague was injured, not killed. It says that Jones was SAS but this is not sourced and merely speculation.
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  5. #95
    Breadan O'Connor Breadan O'Connor is offline

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    Re: dead soldiers

    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL MEYER


    I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that.
    I'm quoting from THE PHOENIX,august 10 2007,

    "Army medic ,John Black wrote to the Daily Telegraph in 2000 to claim that many soldiers killed in the north had not been listed in official casualty figures. This was done to maintain morale and fool voters in Britain. Sgt. Black had attended a soldierwho lost both legs and an arm and subsequently died, but who became a "non person " when his body was shipped to England. Following Blacks claims ,a so called "ghost batallion" of dead combatants was uncovered by the newspaper, which revealed that the BA listed only 651 troops KIA. Telegraph reporters , talking to former soldiers and relatives compiled a list of 719,(Daily Telegraph march 15, 2000)
    Many of the 68 "ghost soldiers"had been undercover or killed by friendly fire.

    Last week, when the final press statement was released by 39th brigade , Lisburn, the number had jumped to 763. There was no explanation for the dramatic increase, but there were still a number of dead soldiers not disclosed as casualties in Ireland. They include Capt. Julian Ball, buried in edinburgh,whom the IRA believe they killed in an ambush. Ball is said by his former CO to have died in a traffic accident in the persian gulf and not undercover in Ireland."
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  6. #96
    Breadan O'Connor Breadan O'Connor is offline

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  7. #97
    LordWestBritofKingstown LordWestBritofKingstown is offline

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    Re: dead soldiers

    [quote=Breadan O'Connor]
    Quote Originally Posted by "PAUL MEYER":j7f1a64j


    I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that.
    I'm quoting from THE PHOENIX,august 10 2007,

    "Army medic ,John Black wrote to the Daily Telegraph in 2000 to claim that many soldiers killed in the north had not been listed in official casualty figures. This was done to maintain morale and fool voters in Britain. Sgt. Black had attended a soldierwho lost both legs and an arm and subsequently died, but who became a "non person " when his body was shipped to England. Following Blacks claims ,a so called "ghost batallion" of dead combatants was uncovered by the newspaper, which revealed that the BA listed only 651 troops KIA. Telegraph reporters , talking to former soldiers and relatives compiled a list of 719,(Daily Telegraph march 15, 2000)
    Many of the 68 "ghost soldiers"had been undercover or killed by friendly fire.

    Last week, when the final press statement was released by 39th brigade , Lisburn, the number had jumped to 763. There was no explanation for the dramatic increase, but there were still a number of dead soldiers not disclosed as casualties in Ireland. They include Capt. Julian Ball, buried in edinburgh,whom the IRA believe they killed in an ambush. Ball is said by his former CO to have died in a traffic accident in the persian gulf and not undercover in Ireland."[/quote:j7f1a64j]



    'Tony Ball' was an SAS captain and Bob Nairac's handler, curiously when Nairac disappeard for months it was through he had defected to the PIRA, such were his links to Republican circles, Nairac is also believed to have set up loyalists for assassination, at the time 14 INT were in the process of attempting to control the UVF.

    Ball apparantly died in a car crash in Oman in the early 80s, where he was a colonel of the Sultan of Omans special forces, in the North he was 14 INTs 2IC, as far as Im aware he left the army around 78 (?).

    I believe he shouldered the blame for the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and the Nairac fiasco.

    In regards to Nairac, for an ex-Ampleforth and Oxford man to go drinking in a bars in Dromintee impersonating someone from the Ardoyne and not blow his cover took some bottle.

    Apparently he practised his act in Kilburn and became so proficient some throught he had gone native, he was even involved in running a boxing and youth club in West Belfast.


    My opinion is that he was a simply an eccentric renegade with a death wish. Ball was far more sinister.


    I believe the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were Balls attempt to get the Southern govt to clamp down on the PIRA or face an escalation of the conflict and also derail secret cease-fire talks which were going on between the PIRA and British govt . Monaghan was simply a diversion to allow the UVF team to get back across the border.
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  8. #98
    Aindriu Aindriu is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL MEYER
    Actually, I've just "Wicki-ed" Francis Hughes and it appears he was the one I was referring to above. The dead soldier was a L/Cpl. David Jones and his colleague was injured, not killed. It says that Jones was SAS but this is not sourced and merely speculation.
    L/Cpl Jones was a Para not SAS. Nor was he attached to 14 Int Coy either.
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  9. #99
    LordWestBritofKingstown LordWestBritofKingstown is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aindriu
    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL MEYER
    Actually, I've just "Wicki-ed" Francis Hughes and it appears he was the one I was referring to above. The dead soldier was a L/Cpl. David Jones and his colleague was injured, not killed. It says that Jones was SAS but this is not sourced and merely speculation.
    L/Cpl Jones was a Para not SAS. Nor was he attached to 14 Int Coy either.

    He was officially 3 Para.


    http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden ... giment.htm
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  10. #100
    PAUL MEYER PAUL MEYER is offline

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    Re: dead soldiers

    [quote=Breadan O'Connor]
    Quote Originally Posted by "PAUL MEYER":23hlangh

    I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that.
    I'm quoting from THE PHOENIX,august 10 2007,

    "Army medic ,John Black wrote to the Daily Telegraph in 2000 to claim that many soldiers killed in the north had not been listed in official casualty figures. This was done to maintain morale and fool voters in Britain. "
    Well with respect Brendan, who the f**k is "Army medic John Black" ? What I mean is, what is his Regiment or Corps, where was he posted, what was his trade and when was he discharged, what period of time is he talking about etc? How was he in a position to be able to say that "many soldiers killed in the north had not been listed in official casualty figures" As for the claim that this was done to "maintain morale and fool voters in Britain" that is utter nonsense, do you think morale would be maintained if soldiers knew their comrades deaths were going unreported? More to the point, do you think they would remain silent at this? What about the families etc. These are points myself and others have already mentioned on this thread and they still stand. As for the point about "voters in Britain" more drivel, NI was never an issue with the voters, the fact that there has been a large measure of agreement between all the main parties made sure of that.

    Sgt. Black had attended a soldier who lost both legs and an arm and subsequently died, but who became a "non person " when his body was shipped to England.
    Did he name this soldier at all? Thats all he had to do to get instant corroboration surely. What did this chaps family and friends have to say about it? What about his regimental association, didn't they get involved? Funny how the D.Telegraph, never mind the Mirror or Guardian, didn't make much of an issue of this.

    Following Blacks claims ,a so called "ghost batallion" of dead combatants was uncovered by the newspaper, which revealed that the BA listed only 651 troops KIA. Telegraph reporters , talking to former soldiers and relatives compiled a list of 719,(Daily Telegraph march 15, 2000) Many of the 68 "ghost soldiers" had been undercover or killed by friendly fire.
    Putting aside the rather cheesy term of "Ghost Battalion" I suspect the key term here is "KIA" or killed in Action, meaning soldiers who died in NI as a direct result of terrorist activity and not of other causes. Something in the region of 300,000 soldiers served in NI in the course of the campaign, it stands to reason that some of them must have died in accidents, from natural causes and suicides and would not be listed as "casualties". I wonder what the statisticians would say was a likely figure for these cases over the period and from that base? Certainly 68, a little over 2 per year on average, does not seem excessive?

    Anyway, what is the evidence for saying that these men had been "undercover" or killed by "friendly fire" ? To be honest I can never recall hearing he words "friendly fire " being uttered in relation to NI in all my time in the Army, it simply wasn't a consideration. The only incident I can recall which would fall into this category is where an officer and a proivate soldier were shot dead by their own platoon after they wandered off at night from an ambush position and returned from a differerent direction. The unit concerned was a Parachute Battalion, January 1980 I believe.

    Had such a thing happened more than once then a "Training Issue" would have been identified the full story would have been passed down to subsequent units in their NITAT training package prior to deployment. This simply doesn't add up I'm afraid. There were of course occasional deaths and injuries from what are called "negligent discharges" where a soldier is sloppy or careless in the handling of his weapon and a comrade is killed or injured as a result,this was always an issue though more so in the early years and all sorts of measures were put in place to prevent it. (I wonder if this is what was actually meant by "friendly-fire" in the Telegraph article?)

    Last week, when the final press statement was released by 39th brigade , Lisburn, the number had jumped to 763. There was no explanation for the dramatic increase,
    I haven't seen the press statement you refer to but there's a simple way of checking, just compare the list against the one compiled on the CAIN website and then query any discrepancies. A caveat though, CAIN is good on names, places, organisations and dates but not on Army units which it doesn't mention. It also seems to assume that every soldier in civilian clothing was therefore "undercover" as opposed to being in civvies as it was easier to get from A to B in a civvy car. The two dead paras mentioned above are shown as being "undercover" for some reason despite being in full uniform when they died.

    but there were still a number of dead soldiers not disclosed as casualties in Ireland. They include Capt. Julian Ball, buried in edinburgh,whom the IRA believe they killed in an ambush. Ball is said by his former CO to have died in a traffic accident in the persian gulf and not undercover in Ireland."
    [/quote:23hlangh]

    Again, how does anybody not in the Army know whose death in NI was not disclosed. The fact that the IRA believe something is not proof that it is true (if it was there would be a United Ireland by now, but I digress). On what basis do they challenge the word of Captain Ball's former CO as to the circumstances of his death?

    I'll reiterate a point I made earlier , in all the time I served in the Army I never once heard from any source inside the Army even the suggestion that casualties were being covered up, the very idea was, and still is, laughable. The telling point of course, is that those who believe in this myth have yet to produce even one shred of concrete proof, just the name of one single squaddy, to support their allegation.
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