Civil Rights and Civil Wrongs

[JCSkinner]

You said otherwise, tosser. Now, either she's Irish or she's not. If she's not she shouldn't be president. If she is, so is everyone else in Northern Ireland.
Incidentally, when she had her house in Rostrevor she didn't have to ask anyone's permission to go stay there. It's only official visits that ruling applies to, and only because security and protocol arrangements must be put in place by DFA and the Gardai.
Now, we've got Nigerians living in Dublin paying taxes (well, some of them), we've got Chinese doing the same, Americans, all sorts. They also abide by the laws and contribute to society.
But they're not Irish without being naturalised, a long and slow process few manage to qualify for.
By your logic, those people are Irish and I'm not. Hilarious.
You never answered the question Steve posed you about if he magically becomes Irish when he moved to Listowel. You never addressed Vito's point about it being specifically an Irish passport. You never answered the fact that the GFA vote you crowed about actually enshrines my passport and citizenship in law.
You're a troll, and not even a particularly well informed one.

[Tigrrr]

You said otherwise, tosser. Now, either she's Irish or she's not. If she's not she shouldn't be president. If she is, so is everyone else in Northern Ireland.

Don't you read? My point is to question why people who live in a foreign jurisdictions apply for - and have demanded and been granted - citizenship of this country.
I can understand granting citizenship to McAleese who has lived here and paid taxes here, and contributed to society in the manner which I have just described.
I can understand granting citizenship and voting rights to any immigrant. What I don't agree with, is giving these rights to non-residents, people who live under foreign Governments, vote for foreign Governments, and pay taxes to those Governments.

It's only official visits that ruling applies to, and only because security and protocol arrangements must be put in place by DFA and the Gardai.

No it is because a visit to Northern Ireland is a visit to a foreign territory that is not a constituent part of the Republic of Ireland - as decided, overwhelmingly, by the people of the Republic of Ireland when we revoked our claim on that territory.

Now, we've got Nigerians living in Dublin paying taxes (well, some of them), we've got Chinese doing the same, Americans, all sorts. They also abide by the laws and contribute to society.
But they're not Irish without being naturalised, a long and slow process few manage to qualify for.
By your logic, those people are Irish and I'm not. Hilarious.

Yup. In my opinion, they are more deserving of citizenship because they live, work, pay tax and participate in this society. Anyone who does so is perfectly entitled to such citizenship, and I don't think that should be objected to.

I'm not picking out NI specifically, this relates to any foreign jurisdiction. I am just as bewildered at the idea of American citizens who apply for Irish citizenship, despite what are often very dubious claims - such as one Irish Grandfather who may have emigrated seventy years ago.

You never answered the question Steve posed you about if he magically becomes Irish when he moved to Listowel.

Well he should be entitled to citizenship when he does so, yes. Of course as it stands he is entitled to citizenship anyway. I'm just questioning why he would apply for it. Of course, living in Listowel, I can see why, and of course it would be recommended to do so.

You never addressed Vito's point about it being specifically an Irish passport.

Yeah, I did. First of all, we should remember that it is a passport issued by the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Ireland in accordance with the constitution of the republic of Ireland, a constitution that lays zero claim on the UK territory on the island of Ireland.
Therefore it is not an official document pertaining to Northern Ireland, but rather an official document of citizens of that jurisdiction who wish to apply for citizenship of the Republic of Ireland, which they are entitled to do.

There is a constitutional problem with writing The Republic of Ireland on the front of those passports because of an historical position expressed in the constitution. This was later amended by the Republic of Ireland Act which describes us as a republic, but it doesn't go the whole way of fixing it since it could be claimed that 'The Republic of Ireland' is a name as opposed to a description.

Anyway, in terms of international law I don;t think anyone would be so stupid as to put forward a theory that the Government of Ireland pretend a claim to the North given how we have amended our constitution to the same effect, and how our President can't travel there without Government permission.

The possible confusion arises from the fact that we grant citizenship to foreign nationals who do not live in the country, it is not that we own the land those people live in.

Similarly, when Israel automatically grants citizenship rights to American, Polish, Russian and - possibly - Northern irish Jews, it doesn't mean they are laying a territorial claim on the states in which those individuals are ordinarily resident.

You never answered the fact that the GFA vote you crowed about actually enshrines my passport and citizenship in law.

That's not really in question. I'm saying I don't really agree with the fact that this has come about, that I think it's a pity this concession was made to the sort of rabid nationalism that has dogged the North for well over a quarter of a century, and that it doesn't make any logical sense for Northerners to apply for passports petaining to this country, since most of them don't live here or participate in, or contribute to Irish society either in terms of taxation or the betterment of the society of this Republic.

[JCSkinner]

Your question was repeatedly answered many times in this thread. No one in Northern Ireland applies for citizenship. They have it as a right of birth. They apply for passports is all, just like you do.
Therefore nothing was 'granted' to McAleese. She was Irish by birth. If you have information to the contrary, I'd be fascinated to know when, where and how she 'applied' and under what legislation.
Furthermore, you compound your ignorance by failing to recognise that McAleese often visited her family home in Rostrevor without the need to inform the Government officially. (Obviously they know her diary details anyway.)
Also, your proposition that anyone working in a country should automatically receive citizenship is preposterous.
Finally, the GFA did not 'concede' citizenship to Northern Irishmen. We already had it, for as long as anyone had it, due to articles 2 and 3. With the eradication of those articles, it was necessary to preserve the citizenship rights of those who might otherwise have been affected.
It strikes me that some confusion exists in your brain between the concepts of citizenship and residency rights. This is understandable given your shaky attachment to the country anyway (since you believe that anyone should be entitled to the citizenship of wherever they happen to be picking up a pay cheque.)
But it doesn't entertain me since there is nothing to be gained from debating with such an obvious troll whose grasp on the most basic concepts in discussion are so distorted.

[merle haggard]

the state and jurisdiction is not the nation .

That's not really in question. I'm saying I don't really agree with the fact that this has come about, that I think it's a pity this concession was made to the sort of rabid nationalism that has dogged the North for well over a quarter of a century, and that it doesn't make any logical sense for Northerners to apply for passports petaining to this country, since most of them don't live here or participate in, or contribute to Irish society either in terms of taxation or the betterment of the society of this Republic.

except winning all the football finals , leagues etc . And your contribution to society appears to be endless streams of mad dogs shyte .

[JCSkinner]

He's well titled, Merle. A classic modern tiger cub with no concept of nationhood, no understanding of politics or history, and a neo-partitionist, fear-based sense of insecurity to boot.

[Tigrrr]

Your question was repeatedly answered many times in this thread. No one in Northern Ireland applies for citizenship. They have it as a right of birth.

They are entitled to it, but the application for an Irish passport is a de facto application for Irish citizenship. The only difference between this applcation and the application of a Nigerian ordinarily resident in the state, is that for some bizarre reason the application of the Northerner will be automatically granted.

Furthermore, you compound your ignorance by failing to recognise that McAleese often visited her family home in Rostrevor without the need to inform the Government officially.

You don't actually know that she didn't. In fact, I have no doubt that she did request permission to visit that territory, since it is a legal requirement for her to observe.

Also, your proposition that anyone working in a country should automatically receive citizenship is preposterous.

No. The fact that someone not living in, not participating in, contributing towards, paying tax in nor associated with this country is automatically granted a passport and an identity pertaining to this country, is what is really preposterous.

He's well titled, Merle. A classic modern tiger cub with no concept of nationhood, no understanding of politics or history, and a neo-partitionist, fear-based sense of insecurity to boot.

Well now that you mention it, the fear of a United Ireland (seperate issue that it is) is actually an apprehension based on the harm that the Northern economy would inflict on this one

[Ireland2007]

They are entitled to it, but the application for an Irish passport is a de facto application for Irish citizenship. The only difference between this applcation and the application of a Nigerian ordinarily resident in the state, is that for some bizarre reason the application of the Northerner will be automatically granted.

Awwwwwwwwwwww poor diddums has a problem with the likes of myself being an Irish citizen by birth. Well, I am. So deal with it. Not to mention the fact that if my parents had passports then they were Irish ones when I was born.

Also, tell me, does the constitution of Nigeria claim that Nigerians are Irish?

No. The fact that someone not living in, not participating in, contributing towards, paying tax in nor associated with this country is automatically granted a passport and an identity pertaining to this country, is what is really preposterous.

Having partitionist, national embarassments like yourself about the place is what's really preposterous.

[rockyracoon]

For all those clever dicks that are worried about foreigners (ie all who don't live in the south) getting Irish passports, dont worry. Your first job is to get rid of the present foreign president. As for your passport, stick where the sun doesn't shine. I don't need it or some clever freestater to tell me whether or not I'm Irish