Civil Rights and Civil Wrongs

[Outside_The_Line]

Well, I don't agree with you having one either, so I suppose we're all square on that point.

On what basis though?
I was born and raised and am still living in the jurisdiction. It makes sense that my local Government would be the ones issuing me a passport.
In what sense are Northern irish people Irish? or more specifically, why do they need a passport from the Republic?

On the basis that you're the sort of objectionable person who gives Irish people in general a bad name.
I also was born in Ireland and live and pay tax in the jurisdiction. In fact I pay tax in two jurisdictions in Ireland.
Northern Irish people are Irish in every sense you are. More so, one could argue, given that they have been forced to fight for their rights to their identity in the face, not only of occupation but also of ignorance like your own from other Irish people.
And I need an Irish passport because I'm Irish and I travel abroad. Same as everyone else who needs one.

Am I seeing things? Did you just say fight and occupation?

[JCSkinner]

Well, I suppose the French or Americans haven't given them passports so you must be talking about voting in the Presidential elections of the Republic of Ireland.

I have never really understood why Northern Irish people got Irish passports, I suppose voting wouldn't be a huge leap, really.

Well there is the thing of not living in this jurisdiction.

Because we're Irish, you moron.

Skinner, you're a Brit if ever there was one.

What, I'm not Irish enough for you because I didn't murder 30 people in Omagh?

[vito corleone]

youre makey upy nationalities and opinions on who is irish are meaningless.

lol. The Republic of Ireland is a different country to the country which includes Northern Ireland in its territory.
The Irish President is the President of the Republic of Ireland. If you don't believe in The Republic of Ireland, what would you be doing voting in its Presidential election anyway?!

Lots of people are entitled to Irish passports, they're common as muck. A guy whose Grandfather left Cork in 1910 and is only 25% Irish and has never been here, is entitled to the same passport as you or I.
I don't agree with that, but I'm not sure I necessarily agree with Northerners getting Irish passports either.

Mary McAleese was born five houses from me and I live in Belfast. She Uachtaran na hEireann. Did I dream that?

[Tigrrr]

On the basis that you're the sort of objectionable person who gives Irish people in general a bad name.

I'm not sure people of Northern Ireland have given this entire island a good name, based on their behaviour over the past thirty years. Both Nationalist and Unionist.

Northern Irish people are Irish in every sense you are.

I'm not going to get pedantic about Ireland as distinct from the Republic of Ireland, but they're not from the Republic and as such I don't see why they want a passport from the Republic.
Especially since many of them only recognize the republic when it suits them.

More so, one could argue, given that they have been forced to fight for their rights

If they had tried for Irish unity through legislative methods, they might have won more respect. Like I said, the behaviour of many people in the North is not particularly appealing, it's a disgraceful behaviour that I think most people in the Republic choose to distance ourselves from.

And I need an Irish passport because I'm Irish and I travel abroad. Same as everyone else who needs one.

No, that's why they need a passport.
I'm asking what's wrong with a British passport? The Government of the Republic of Ireland and the Government of the UK both seem to agree that the North is in British territory.
Aside from some perceived divine right to a foreign nationality, I just don't see why you guys would want or need a passport from Dublin. What if I wake up in the morning and start to feel French, should I be entitled to a French passport?

If Down isn't in Ireland how did they win 5 football All-Irelands? Why does the GAA's Hurling & Football championships include 32 counties of Ireland?

Because it's not The Republic of Ireland Gaelic Championships, it's an island thing. Just like the UEFA cup is an (almost) European/ continental thing. It doesn't make a French or German person Italian. It has no constitutional or geographical/ legislative influence.

[JCSkinner]

It's not about 'feeling' anything, but about being something. We're Irish, we're constitutionally recognised as Irish, are entitled to Irish citizenship, to vote in elections, to reside in the Republic and all other benefits and priveliges of being Irish.
Now if you don't like that, why not mount a constitutional challenge?
Give us all a laugh.
Or if you'd rather feel French, try Paris. I understand you'll get the citizenship you desire after five tax paying years, or only two if you marry some deluded local chick first.

[st333ve]

Being a british subject doesnt mean youre exclusively british.
Thats like saying scottish people dont exist.
No matter what duristiction armagh is in, it will always be in ireland.

no it doesnt , it means youve an Irish identity but you live in the united kingdom . The queens realm is signified by the symbols of Ireland , England Scotland and Wales . As is the union jack representative of nations including Ireland . Even the RUC crest comprised of harp and shamrock . That the south permits you to hold its passport is of little concern to them and outisde their control anyway . ( and it keeps you happy) . But the constitutional issue is settled
However permitting the south to organise and over see elections on its terrority would be a challenge of sorts to its sovereignty . It might also upset unionists . The southern parties have an official leinster house policy of not saying or doing anything that could upset unionists , its a point of order . Thats why you cant have a vote , much less a green paper on unity .

Well i detatch myself from the crowns mumbo jumbo, its nice to see you take it all in so seriously.
The irish in the north are irish i dont know what people like you are, but i know for a fact that if the definition of being irish was someone with your imagination then i would be ashamed to call myself irish.
The partitionists in the south who encourage the regretable situation that led to the "temporary" alienation of the irish in the north through patition do not deserve the great name of irish.
They can get a passport so they can go on holiday and vote for Bertie but any nation in the world who believes in selling their own people to foreign occupation doesnt deserve a nationality of any kind.
Theres other names for people like that.

There is a new generation of people in the ROI, their attitudes and beliefs are nothing like the men they idolise from the past, nor do they have any kind of patriotism, morals or dignity for their country, infact things like these are to be laughed at.
These people have became the victims of british rule in ireland, they mimic the mindset of the DUP and believe being irish is defined by the Dail and the Crown.
Thers a fine line between the two.

I grew up in ireland, in the irish countryside on the shore of lough neah.
My family struggled and my family were shot and killed for being irish or playing gaelic football.
I have been all over the world and nowhere compares to my home.
My life and irish upbringing would not have changed no matter who reckons they own the north.
Things like this make me irish,make me feel irish no government or law can ever take this from me.

[vito corleone]

On the basis that you're the sort of objectionable person who gives Irish people in general a bad name.

I'm not sure people of Northern Ireland have given this entire island a good name, based on their behaviour over the past thirty years. Both Nationalist and Unionist.

Northern Irish people are Irish in every sense you are.

I'm not going to get pedantic about Ireland as distinct from the Republic of Ireland, but they're not from the Republic and as such I don't see why they want a passport from the Republic.
Especially since many of them only recognize the republic when it suits them.

[quote:2a1n1vcf]More so, one could argue, given that they have been forced to fight for their rights

If they had tried for Irish unity through legislative methods, they might have won more respect. Like I said, the behaviour of many people in the North is not particularly appealing, it's a disgraceful behaviour that I think most people in the Republic choose to distance ourselves from.

And I need an Irish passport because I'm Irish and I travel abroad. Same as everyone else who needs one.

No, that's why they need a passport.
I'm asking what's wrong with a British passport? The Government of the Republic of Ireland and the Government of the UK both seem to agree that the North is in British territory.
Aside from some perceived divine right to a foreign nationality, I just don't see why you guys would want or need a passport from Dublin. What if I wake up in the morning and start to feel French, should I be entitled to a French passport?

If Down isn't in Ireland how did they win 5 football All-Irelands? Why does the GAA's Hurling & Football championships include 32 counties of Ireland?

Because it's not The Republic of Ireland Gaelic Championships, it's an island thing. Just like the UEFA cup is an (almost) European/ continental thing. It doesn't make a French or German person Italian. It has no constitutional or geographical/ legislative influence.[/quote:2a1n1vcf]

Look, if you're going to go head to head with people who know what they're talking about you need to be careful. The reason that people in the North can't have a British passport, apart from the fact that many of them don't wan't one, is that there is no such country as Britain and no such thing as a British passport, you dunderhead. Doesn't exist, fella, which kind of means you're, ah, talkin horlicks. There is, however, a place called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Which means English, Scots and Welsh people are British, if they wanna be, but people from Northern Ireland are not. That said, I fully respect the right of my prod neighbours to call themselves British even though it's technically questionable. It means a lot to them, I respect that. Being Irish means a lot to me too. My family have lived on this island since Moby Dick was a tadpole. Which makes me Irish. Not British. Not Northern Irish. Or even, what's worse, Republic of Irish. Which is what you are, by your own wonderful logic.

[Tigrrr]

My family have lived on this island since Moby Dick was a tadpole. Which makes me Irish. Not British. Not Northern Irish. Or even, what's worse, Republic of Irish

I see. You don't want a passport from the Republic of Ireland then, nor to vote in its elections. Sounds sensible to me. My question is with people who do seek these things.

Or if you'd rather feel French, try Paris.

Well you know the obvious response to that... if you'd rather feel like youre from the Republic of Ireland, try Dublin. I'm not denying that a person who holds an Irish passport is technically, broadly, Irish - because of the GFA, I'm just wondering why that situation even had to come about - in effect, why do Northern Irish people feel Irish?

I see this as some unnecessary political concession to a sort of rabid Nationalism that infected Ulster in the latter half of the twentieth century. Personally I don't hold nationality so dear that I object to sharing it with people from the North, of course not. It's more a bewilderment with someone endorses a group who invents the need to murder innocent civilians for that nationality, and a bewilderment with people who demand nationality of a foreign country for absolutely no logical reason whatsover, and get it.

The partitionists in the south who encourage the regretable situation that led to the "temporary" alienation of the irish in the north through patition do not deserve the great name of irish.

I'm not sure what you think the North has done to contribute to any perceived "great name of Irish". To establish a good reputation you have to work for it, it isn't something one earns lazily by virtue of nationality.

There is a new generation of people in the ROI, their attitudes and beliefs are nothing like the men they idolise from the past, nor do they have any kind of patriotism, morals or dignity for their country, infact things like these are to be laughed at.

Well you know I agree that there is a new generation, and a new attitude in the Republic. I'm not sure how new it is anymore, possibly more than a generation old. It is an attitude that has settled on its patriotism, has relaxed its trenchant nationalism and has endorsed a greater pan European and integrated identity. The Republic of Ireland as it stands today is more successful than it ever was as a battlefield, or a prisoner to nationalism.

Where has your nationalism ever got you?

[st333ve]

On the basis that you're the sort of objectionable person who gives Irish people in general a bad name.

I'm not sure people of Northern Ireland have given this entire island a good name, based on their behaviour over the past thirty years. Both Nationalist and Unionist.
.

The ROI gave ireland a bad name by throwing all their sh1t up here and now theyre complaining it stinks.

So what has happened in NI that could possibly give the republic a bad name?

If your refering to the troubles, can i refer you to what created your shinier than shiny state?
How about a civil war that butcherd 4,000 irishmen in 2 months.
Thats almost 500 more people than were killed over a massive 35 year period of the troubles, and thats only one incident!

The republics violent history and mass slaughter their own people is frankly quite disturbing, especially as in their diluded sence of self rightcheousness they think of it as something to celebrate.

The troubles arnt celebrated in the north.

Or maybe you feel ashamed at the north because the nationalist dont agree with the british rule the 26 landed on us.

Do you honestly believe that if british landrovers and union jacks were flown in dublin city today that people would all of a sudden be more civilised because theyre from the south?

Cop on.

What will the history books think of the free state/roi's 1920 onwards contribution for the liberation of the irish people and continued efforts to rid ireland of foreign rule.
Id say it will use up less words than what i have typed in the last 10 minutes.

[JCSkinner]

Or if you'd rather feel French, try Paris.

Well you know the obvious response to that... if you'd rather feel like youre from the Republic of Ireland, try Dublin. I'm not denying that a person who holds an Irish passport is technically, broadly, Irish - because of the GFA, I'm just wondering why that situation even had to come about - in effect, why do Northern Irish people feel Irish?
I see this as some unnecessary political concession to a sort of rabid Nationalism that infected Ulster in the latter half of the twentieth century. Personally I don't hold nationality so dear that I object to sharing it with people from the North, of course not. It's more a bewilderment with someone endorses a group who invents the need to murder innocent civilians for that nationality, and a bewilderment with people who demand nationality of a foreign country for absolutely no logical reason whatsover, and get it.

Why do Northern IRISH people feel IRISH? Erm, the clue's in your own question, dunderhead.
Your crack about murder is entirely irrelevant to me, as I've never murdered anyone, except insofar that in my part of Ireland many people in my neighbourhood were murdered for espousing their Irishness.
Now, if you're bewildered about the 'New Irish' flooding into the country, well, that's the price we pay for globalisation.
But as has been repeatedly pointed out, Northern Irish people are Irish, and hence not foreign. Your inability or refusal to grasp this marks you out as a troll in my mind.
If you're genuine, however, then go take a case in the Supreme Court about it. Bankrupt yourself and let us all laugh while you do so.