MI5 and Omagh - The Bomb to End All Bombs?

[British Citizen]

Now as an Imperialist i'm sure you like BC, wouldn't give a flying fvck if nationalists still lived as second citizens in your 'world leading democracy'.

I'd like an apology for that comment.

I wouldn't wish 2nd class treatment for any group of people - be it nationalists in NI, protestants in the Republic or blacks in America.

Yet again, you're mistaking my anti-IRA and anti-Republican violence for anti-catholicism.

Two very different things.

[Robo]

Well they toyed seriously with the idea in 1970 of annhilating or driving across the border the nationalist or whatever word you want to use population but decided not to because of how the French and to a lesser extent the Germans as opposed to the Americans. The whole thing about "Irish America" is sentimental waffle. That said the Brits made very serious efforts in the late 70s/early 80s to regain control and put the provos out of action (I think one Brit general came on the TV and even said its more or less over). This led to the PIRA becoming a lot more streamlined and elite so to speak.

But your not suggesting that the British state would continue to let its citizens especially its "Loyal" ones die for the purposes of training?

Not at all but that was one of the effects of the prolonged troubles, it was use as training and keep people on their toes. The PIRA failed to kill the armed forces in enought numbers to have an effect, you can see the samething happening in Afganistan. They are failing to effect numbers and they are trying a lot more than the IRA ever did, which in its self highlights the folly of armed struggle.

Yeah the old orange superman argument.

The UDR did "take the gloves off" when they formed the Glenanne gang in the 70's and went on a sectarian killing spree along the border areas.

The result was a gigantic backlash from Republican groups and lots of dead UDR men in Keady,Crossmanglen, Glenanne, Dromintee and Newtown.

They didn't take the gloves of a small group went freelance, how long do you think the republican movement in the north would have lasted if the Army and RUC killed them or anyone that even looked at them wrong way on sight ? A few months? The thing is that westminster didn't want that to happen to their own population, that included the whole population of N Ireland.

[mutley]

Not at all but that was one of the effects of the prolonged troubles, it was use as training and keep people on their toes. The PIRA failed to kill the armed forces in enought numbers to have an effect, you can see the samething happening in Afganistan. They are failing to effect numbers and they are trying a lot more than the IRA ever did, which in its self highlights the folly of armed struggle.





They didn't take the gloves of a small group went freelance, how long do you think the republican movement in the north would have lasted if the Army and RUC killed them or anyone that even looked at them wrong way on sight ? A few months? The thing is that westminster didn't want that to happen to their own population, that included the whole population of N Ireland.

And why did they not want it to happen? Not out of any genuine concern for the Nationalist Population, thats for sure.
Bloody Sunday showed Westminster that they would not be able to get away with shooting anyone that looked at the security forces wrong, the back lash was to severe.
Also shooting people for looking at the security forces the wrong way, would have droves thousans more into the arms of the PIRA

[SevenStars]

And why did they not want it to happen? Not out of any genuine concern for the Nationalist Population, thats for sure.
Bloody Sunday showed Westminster that they would not be able to get away with shooting anyone that looked at the security forces wrong, the back lash was to severe.
Also shooting people for looking at the security forces the wrong way, would have droves thousans more into the arms of the PIRA

Well the gloves came off well and truelly in Afghanistan (almost to the point where we can start to talk about a genocide attempt)...But this has had led to civil war in Pakistan which is the last thing the Brits and the Americans wanted. You have to remember also that it those days the Soviet block (of which Im not a fan of) did act as a balance to the Atlantic powers which gave greater room to move for oppressed nations and classes...You have to remember that the Paris and Bonn axis (particularly Paris at this time) were uneasy parterners of the London and Washington alliance.

Still it must be remembered that the Brits did have a shot to kill policy, did arm and use death squads, were not shy about torture, etc. They also did seriously consider cleansing the six counties violently of any anti-British sentiment. On cosys in Whitehall life is cheap.

[Ifor Bach]

You mean objectives change to suit the latest setbacks and defeat. That was the PIRA's greatest strength, dressing up defeat as victory.

+111

A bit like Saddam claiming he had 'won' the First Gulf War.

The SF leadership truely deserve a golden brass neck award.

[Ifor Bach]

The UDR did "take the gloves off" when they formed the Glenanne gang in the 70's and went on a sectarian killing spree along the border areas.

You haven't the faintest idea what 'taking the gloves off' actually means.

The result was a gigantic backlash from Republican groups and lots of dead UDR men in Keady,Crossmanglen, Glenanne, Dromintee and Newtown.

You have countered the 'Orange Superman' point, with an equally trite 'Green superman' fantasy.

Erm, great debating skills there, brains.

[Ifor Bach]

Decommissioning is not surrender look the words up if you don't understand. It's a concession like disbanding the sectarian RUC and substituting it with the equally dubious PSNI, am i being clear enough?

Disbanding and disarming hardly equates with rebranding, which is what happened when the PSNI logo was painted over the old RUC one.

[Ifor Bach]

I'm no fan of the provo's, do you disagree that objectives change during times of war, was it not an objective of thatcher/ british army to crush the provo's?

If they succeded why aren't gerry and martin jailed? Why were all those prisoners released?

Supposing the Nazis had invaded Britain in WW2.

Now what would be a greater victory, to have jailed and or executed Churchill and the British government, or to have had them serve as Nazi Ministers, and give the SS and gestapo their blessing?

Neither side can claim an outright victory, pay attention now, i'm sick of typing the following pharse, THAT'S WHAT A STALEMATE IS, understand now do we?

or shall i get you a colouring pencil?

I'm sick of the phrase, as well.

You are wrong.

N.I. remains part of the U.K., Martin is a Minister of the Crown, and SF give their support to crown forces. Now, if you are simply to obstinate or deluded to see this as anything other than a defeat for the objective of a United Ireland, should I be getting out the colouring pencils for your benefit?

[Ifor Bach]

Who did what? Defeated the IRA? You accept they were defeated then?

Yes of course I do.

Oh sh1te, SS believes in 9/11 conspiracy theories, the Brits bombed Omagh, the works .....

Perhaps eoghanacht was right after all .....

[SevenStars]

Oh sh1te, SS believes in 9/11 conspiracy theories, the Brits bombed Omagh, the works .....

.....

I neither believe or disbelieve them I was just pointing out to Portstewart that very credible and serious (such as an ex-Prime Minister of Italy) do believe them so they cant be dismissed lightly.

The subjects under discussion here arose passions enough without you and Pic making perpetual snide comments.