Northern magistrate - a refreshing view.

[centauro]

The National Volunteers sent more men to Britains war then the UV did. FACT and more died in sacrifice as well FACT, .
WavingUnion Jacks in celebration of Ulsters war effort doesnt add up

Unionists are a minority on this Island, why would you assume that they would provide a majority of volunteers for their countries army? The Union jack was our flag then, and still is now, what other flag would we wave?

[tiocfaidh]

Oh I know the songs ok, but singing songs doesn't amount to "carnage". Did Carsons volunteers cause carnage in Ireland?, did they shoot people at a taxi ranks, bomb bus stations, napalm hotels?

First of all, let's get past the references to taxi rank shootings and napalm. We're talking about a man who did his damage nearly 100 years ago.

The damage he did is far more pervasive than that inflicted by any one incident. He was partly responsible for the division of the island. His role in that in itself is far more damaging than anything done by any one person during the recent troubles. Secondly, by his own admission, he was running an illegal outfit (as he said, “…the (UVF) are illegal and the Government know they are illegal, and the government dare not interfere with them…Don’t be afraid of illegalities.”) which set a precedent for collusion and all that goes with it. He was willing to do anything to avoide Home Rule. Towards that end his imported guns from Germany which I do not believe were used for rabbit hunting.

[SevenStars]

Oh I know the songs ok, but singing songs doesn't amount to "carnage". Did Carsons volunteers cause carnage in Ireland?, did they shoot people at a taxi ranks, bomb bus stations, napalm hotels?

Twice as many people were killed in the occupied six counties when we were having whats called our civil war (I prefer the word counter-revolution as it describes it better) most of them from the "nationalist" community.

I really wish Unionists would stop pretending to be saints (no one is claiming the IRA ever were).

I found a very good article on the net awhile back on the dangers in moralizing politics which is essentially about power struggles and in demonizing your enemies. When I suceed in digging it up I will post it here.

[tooler]

Unionists are a minority on this Island, why would you assume that they would provide a majority of volunteers for their countries army? The Union jack was our flag then, and still is now, what other flag would we wave?

I was nt assuming anything , just stating facts. I will not assume that you may find it strange that Nationalist Volunteers commited to a break from Britain , should then turn out in such vast numbers to defend its shores.

Yes unionists are a minority in Ireland (around 20%). their representation in the political arena in which they want to remain is 2% !!
Unionists will have a far better mechanism to affect politics in a United Ireland than they have now. The sooner they get on board the better cos Britain has no interest in maintaining the Union. Scotland wants to leave , so do the Welsh and quite frankly so do the English !!

[mutley]

Oh I know the songs ok, but singing songs doesn't amount to "carnage". Did Carsons volunteers cause carnage in Ireland?, did they shoot people at a taxi ranks, bomb bus stations, napalm hotels?

Did I say that they shot people at taxi ranks?

Carsons Volunteers were formed to resist Home Rule by force, you try to paint a picture of a volunteer force arising out of the need to fight in the second world war, the "carnage" that the Volunteers were designed for, did not come into fruitition as Home Rule was put on the back burner because of WWI.

[centauro]

First of all, let's get past the references to taxi rank shootings and napalm. We're talking about a man who did his damage nearly 100 years ago.

Yeah, it was a long time ago, but I grew up with real carnage, not this imaginary carnage which Carsons volunteers never wrought.

The damage he did is far more pervasive than that inflicted by any one incident. He was partly responsible for the division of the island. His role in that in itself is far more damaging than anything done by any one person during the recent troubles. Secondly, by his own admission, he was running an illegal outfit (as he said, “…the (UVF) are illegal and the Government know they are illegal, and the government dare not interfere with them…Don’t be afraid of illegalities.”) which set a precedent for collusion and all that goes with it. He was willing to do anything to avoide Home Rule. Towards that end his imported guns from Germany which I do not believe were used for rabbit hunting.

Carson did no damage, simply played a game of poker with a weak british government, and won. The Mausers were rather a large bore for rabbit shooting, I would imagine most have long since rusted away. As for your collusion precedent claptrap, well, it comes up here all the time. Some individual members of the security forces commited crimes, and some involved in intelligence made bad decisions. That's as far as the "evidence" will take you. Can't imagine how that relates to Carson.

[centauro]

Twice as many people were killed in the occupied six counties when we were having whats called our civil war (I prefer the word counter-revolution as it describes it better) most of them from the "nationalist" community.

Yeah, there were a lot of deaths here, tragic, but in the north the Nationalists had a lot more of the "enemy" to fight. It was their decision to take up arms.

I really wish Unionists would stop pretending to be saints (no one is claiming the IRA ever were).

I have no problem condeming the scum who carried out murders here during the last 40 years, however, it was alleged that Carson, and his volunteers, were responsible for "carnage" That is factually incorrect.

I found a very good article on the net awhile back on the dangers in moralizing politics which is essentially about power struggles and in demonizing your enemies. When I suceed in digging it up I will post it here.

That would be interesting, I'm willing to read anything, but it would probably have been of more use here to the recently banned physical force republicans.

[centauro]

Did I say that they shot people at taxi ranks?

Carsons Volunteers were formed to resist Home Rule by force, you try to paint a picture of a volunteer force arising out of the need to fight in the second world war, the "carnage" that the Volunteers were designed for, did not come into fruitition as Home Rule was put on the back burner because of WWI.

Thanks, I actually do know why they were formed. They were used in a poker game, the British army gave them an ace when they mutinied at the Curragh. Some posters here seem to think that they took part in some form of "carnage" here in Ireland. They didn't.

[centauro]

I was nt assuming anything , just stating facts. I will not assume that you may find it strange that Nationalist Volunteers commited to a break from Britain , should then turn out in such vast numbers to defend its shores.

They did the right thing, volunteered to fight for their country in it's time of need. Bravo for the National Volunteers. Bravo for the British army!

Yes unionists are a minority in Ireland (around 20%). their representation in the political arena in which they want to remain is 2% !!
Unionists will have a far better mechanism to affect politics in a United Ireland than they have now. The sooner they get on board the better cos Britain has no interest in maintaining the Union. Scotland wants to leave , so do the Welsh and quite frankly so do the English !!

Unionists are not a minority in the UK. We are quite happy with the political clout we currently have. We don't seek to dominate Westminster, we are quite happy with the way things are thanks. There is no evidence that a majority in England, Scotland or Wales wish to break up the Union.That's just wishful thinking on your part.

[tooler]

scotland has its parliament and wales its assemby.
The Orange order didnt even support the union of the 19th century The English are apathetic about it but each of these countries prefer their own flags over that of the Flag of the Union..have alook at the next England game or scotland game.
What happens when scotland votes to leave the union...does Ulster raise arms against the Jocks?