Kick the Pope?

[meriwether]

And you'll agree that the OO's links to Loyalist paramilitaries are exactly the same then? A few local members or lodges acting against the wishes of the leadership.

Aah, so we have got to this point have we?

If it was just a few rogue members and lodges, how do you explain the widespread rioting and violence perpetuated by its members and supporters on the streets in Drumcree 1996?

[British Citizen]

If that is the case, then point conceded (by me at least, and only if that is the extent of connections).

Finally, we're getting somewhere. This is the point I'm trying to make.

1 - Nationalists claim the Orange Order has links to Loyalist paramilitaries.
2 - I know from my own personal experiences that these links amount to nothing more than occasional overlapping of membership (and nowhere near the amount you might think), paying tribute to dead UVF/UDA men (because they were members of the OO when they died), the allowing of Billy Wright, Johnny Adair and their disciples at Drumcree (though, to be fair, who there was going to have the swingers to tell them to feck off?) and a certain amount of 'shoulder shrugging' when asked to condemn violence linked to parades/protests/etc.
3 - The same people who make claims about Billy Wright or Johnny Adair on Drumcree Hill refuse to see Brendan McFarlane at Casement Park in the same light. This is despite the fact that the OO did not give permission to either Johnny or Billy to be there - nor were they paraded on a stage as 'heroes'. To me the Casement Park incident shows more of a link than the Drumcree Hill stuff because the local GAA actually voted to allow it to go ahead. The OO didn't have the luxury to vote on the issue.
4 - You cannot accuse the OO of links to UVF/UDA without also accepting the GAA's very similar links to the IRA/INLA.
5 - I know it is not GAA policy to provide all-Ireland support to Republican terrorists - but it is clear that (in Northern Ireland especially) local clubs and county boards did/do provide support in various forms.
6 - The people who claim the links between the OO and UDA/UVF make claims that it is a widespread, decades old relationship from the very top of the organisation. If nationalists want to tar an entire organisation of tens of thousands of members because of the behaviour of a few then I can do the same with the GAA.

Anyone who accepts the OO/UDA/UVF links are not reflective of the entire organisation would be right. In that case I will also accept that the GAA's support for the IRA and INLA is localised and does not have the support of the GAA leadership.

Are we all in agreement then?

[British Citizen]

The organisation has links with the UDA and UVF. The organisation allows UDA and IVF colour parties to march with it.

The organisation allows its followers display paramilitary regala at marches.

The organisation, is by design, sectarian.

The orgainsation is political.

The organisation has used violence to further its aims, and has caused widespread unrest. Its supporters have killed people and burnt property as part of these campaigns.

Are these the actions of a religious, fraternal, organisation, which is what you orginally painted it as?

Do the Hari Krishnas carry on like this?

I have answered every one of your (wrong) claims in previous posts. If you want to insist on repeating them over and over then fire away. I'll not waste my time replying.

[British Citizen]

Aah, so we have got to this point have we?

If it was just a few rogue members and lodges, how do you explain the widespread rioting and violence perpetuated by its members and supporters on the streets in Drumcree 1996?

You're getting on to a different subject now. I'm talking explicitly about links to the UVF and UDA.

[tooler]

Agreed

[Ifor Bach]

Finally, we're getting somewhere. This is the point I'm trying to make.

1 - Nationalists claim the Orange Order has links to Loyalist paramilitaries.
2 - I know from my own personal experiences that these links amount to nothing more than occasional overlapping of membership (and nowhere near the amount you might think), paying tribute to dead UVF/UDA men (because they were members of the OO when they died), the allowing of Billy Wright, Johnny Adair and their disciples at Drumcree (though, to be fair, who there was going to have the swingers to tell them to feck off?) and a certain amount of 'shoulder shrugging' when asked to condemn violence linked to parades/protests/etc.
3 - The same people who make claims about Billy Wright or Johnny Adair on Drumcree Hill refuse to see Brendan McFarlane at Casement Park in the same light. This is despite the fact that the OO did not give permission to either Johnny or Billy to be there - nor were they paraded on a stage as 'heroes'. To me the Casement Park incident shows more of a link than the Drumcree Hill stuff because the local GAA actually voted to allow it to go ahead. The OO didn't have the luxury to vote on the issue.
4 - You cannot accuse the OO of links to UVF/UDA without also accepting the GAA's very similar links to the IRA/INLA.
5 - I know it is not GAA policy to provide all-Ireland support to Republican terrorists - but it is clear that (in Northern Ireland especially) local clubs and county boards did/do provide support in various forms.
6 - The people who claim the links between the OO and UDA/UVF make claims that it is a widespread, decades old relationship from the very top of the organisation. If nationalists want to tar an entire organisation of tens of thousands of members because of the behaviour of a few then I can do the same with the GAA.

Anyone who accepts the OO/UDA/UVF links are not reflective of the entire organisation would be right. In that case I will also accept that the GAA's support for the IRA and INLA is localised and does not have the support of the GAA leadership.

Are we all in agreement then?

Very good points.

And true.

[British Citizen]

I don't think that's reasonable.

If British citizen, for whatever reason, happens to believe this, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to state this.

The opinion is no more stupid than the various conspiracy theories about 9/11, or a great many beliefs held by republicans, which do not get deleted.

You never got back to me on that video I posted in reply to you. What's your thoughts on the IRA hunger strike commemoration held at the GAA's Casement Park?

[meriwether]

Finally, we're getting somewhere. This is the point I'm trying to make.

1 - Nationalists claim the Orange Order has links to Loyalist paramilitaries.
2 - I know from my own personal experiences that these links amount to nothing more than occasional overlapping of membership (and nowhere near the amount you might think), paying tribute to dead UVF/UDA men (because they were members of the OO when they died), the allowing of Billy Wright, Johnny Adair and their disciples at Drumcree (though, to be fair, who there was going to have the swingers to tell them to feck off?) and a certain amount of 'shoulder shrugging' when asked to condemn violence linked to parades/protests/etc.
3 - The same people who make claims about Billy Wright or Johnny Adair on Drumcree Hill refuse to see Brendan McFarlane at Casement Park in the same light. This is despite the fact that the OO did not give permission to either Johnny or Billy to be there - nor were they paraded on a stage as 'heroes'. To me the Casement Park incident shows more of a link than the Drumcree Hill stuff because the local GAA actually voted to allow it to go ahead. The OO didn't have the luxury to vote on the issue.
4 - You cannot accuse the OO of links to UVF/UDA without also accepting the GAA's very similar links to the IRA/INLA.
5 - I know it is not GAA policy to provide all-Ireland support to Republican terrorists - but it is clear that (in Northern Ireland especially) local clubs and county boards did/do provide support in various forms.
6 - The people who claim the links between the OO and UDA/UVF make claims that it is a widespread, decades old relationship from the very top of the organisation. If nationalists want to tar an entire organisation of tens of thousands of members because of the behaviour of a few then I can do the same with the GAA.

Anyone who accepts the OO/UDA/UVF links are not reflective of the entire organisation would be right. In that case I will also accept that the GAA's support for the IRA and INLA is localised and does not have the support of the GAA leadership.

Are we all in agreement then?

You're getting there.

You have been reformed.

Go in peace to love and praise the sash.

[British Citizen]

You're getting there.

You have been reformed.

Go in peace to love and praise the sash.

No surrender!

[Lord Deputy of Listowel]

Imagine had the reformation fully succeeded, would we still have 'Orange Men'?
I doubt it somehow, perhaps we'll all be 'Green Men'