Robinson Claims 'Unanimous' Support for Policing & Justice Deal

[tiocfaidh]

Its not about helping nationalists or helping unionists. Its about creating a win win via a better framework.

No, it's about helping nationalists prevent yahoo sectarian idiotic violent loyalist scum from marching down Garvaghy Road or through Ardoyne and other places where they have absolutely no business promoting their archaic trumphalism, and if you really want to spin it as a "win win" or anything else you have truly lost touch. This is not one of those situations where everybody has an equally valid argument. A parading body has to recognise that loyalist parades do not belong in certain places.

[mutley]

So there are two questions: (1) Did the DUP win the scrapping of the Parades Commission? The unambiguous answer is "yes". The Parades Commission is very clearly, unambiguously, being scrapped. It's only a matter of when. The Agreement at Hillsbough Castle ("AHC") says the final bill will be fully invoked on 13 December, but when did anything ever go according to schedule in the 6C?
(2) Did the DUP really win any concessions of substance? Aside from the blustering and posturing of politicians, this is really the only question that matters. SF will argue that the new arrangements will provide results at least, from a Nationalist perspective, as the old Parades Commission. The DUP will argue that the new arrangements will be far more sympathetic to loyalist marches. And the TUV will be strange bedfellows with SF on this, so they can argue that the DUP gave in to republicans.

Really only time will tell whether this new parades body arrangement hurts or helps nationalists.

It has echo's of the GFA in so many ways, sold to Unionists as security for the Union, and to Nationalists as a stepping stone to a UI.

I don't think that the DUP won anything of substance, but they won the sham/charade negoiations. What was all the drama since before Christmas all about.

The point I am making is that Sinn Fein were adamant that there would be no devolution on P&J that included a deal on parading, MMG threatened to resign over it, the DUP were heart scared of an early election, but still came out of the negoiations with what they wanted (substance of not)
THe fact that concessions have been made on parading and there is no early elections, leads me to believe that SF did not have any real appetite for an early election either

[picador]

But Sinn Fein were strongly resistant to the Ashdown Proposals, why the change of heart?

You maintained that the parades resolution would be a rehash of the Ashdown proposals,
The Ashwdown proposals were something that the DUP where pushing for and Sinn Fein were resisting. How is that a face saving exercise, if the DUP are in effect going to get the Ashdown proposals according to you?

YOu have still to answer my question
If Sinn Fein were so adamant that there would be no deal that included parading, why did M MG not resign?

Because it was a negotiating position. Just like 'not in a political lifetime' was the position of some in the DUP.

[factual]

No, it's about helping nationalists prevent yahoo sectarian idiotic violent loyalist scum from marching down Garvaghy Road or through Ardoyne and other places where they have absolutely no business promoting their archaic trumphalism, and if you really want to spin it as a "win win" or anything else you have truly lost touch. This is not one of those situations where everybody has an equally valid argument. A parading body has to recognise that loyalist parades do not belong in certain places.

On Parades in the 6C there has been cooperation - in parades - between republicans and loyalists in recent years on the GROUND. The parades stuff is about turning confrontation to cooperation on the ground.

[tiocfaidh]

Its not about helping nationalists or helping unionists. Its about creating a win win via a better framework.

....or if you want to frame it in the context of a "better framework", that new framework had better have the common sense to know that loyalist parades have no business going down places like Garvaghy Road or Ardoyne. It has to stand up for those priciples of common sense. If it gets all wishy-washy on that and allows for compromise on that, then it is a huge loss for nationalists and SF must accept responsibility for that. Nationalists have already given 95% of the compromise regarding parading by not contesting 95% of the parades. They should not be expected to give on the few contentious parades because no right-thinking reasonable person could be expected to defend those specific parades.

[picador]

Not even Ardoyne parades group is seriously suggesting all parades are banned from passing down the Crumlin Road. But the Parades Commission lets them all down anyway. At the end of the day it's just another unaccountable NIO-appointed quango.

And why is that so many are willing to die in a ditch over the Garvaghy Road? But few seem to care about Rasharkin?

[tiocfaidh]

On Parades in the 6C there has been cooperation - in parades - between republicans and loyalists in recent years on the GROUND. The parades stuff is about turning confrontation to cooperation on the ground.

Yes, and that aspect of it is good. And the AHC provides for "recourse to independent adjudications and procedures" if mediation between the bodies on the ground does not work. The AHC also says that the FM and DFM will abide by the decisions made via the new processes. So if and when it comes to such "recourse to independent adjudications and procedures", where does that leave nationalists (who in the cases of Garvaghy, Ardoyne, Rasharkin, etc. are objectively RIGHT and loyalists objectively WRONG; sorry, no room for any other interpretation there) if these new "independent adjudications" start moving more and more in the direction of the loyalists? What assurance can SF provide that that will not happen? SF surely must have considered this, knowing the massive backlash against the party that will occur if parading decisions start going the wrong way.

[picador]

You are ignoring the fact that the Parades Commission allows all loyalist parades along the Crumlin Road and through Rasharkin to proceed.

Going from memory the Ashdown recommendations allow for the adjudicators to be appointed by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Which is a damn sight more reassuring than the NIO doing it (remember Hain's appointment of not one but TWO Orangemen to the Commission at the same time!)

[factual]

Yes, and that aspect of it is good. And the AHC provides for "recourse to independent adjudications and procedures" if mediation between the bodies on the ground does not work. The AHC also says that the FM and DFM will abide by the decisions made via the new processes. So if and when it comes to such "recourse to independent adjudications and procedures", where does that leave nationalists (who in the cases of Garvaghy, Ardoyne, Rasharkin, etc. are objectively RIGHT and loyalists objectively WRONG; sorry, no room for any other interpretation there) if these new "independent adjudications" start moving more and more in the direction of the loyalists? What assurance can SF provide that that will not happen? SF surely must have considered this, knowing the massive backlash against the party that will occur if parading decisions start going the wrong way.

Yeah absolutely but I think if you get both sides talking to each other and listening to the concerns and so on, cooperating, then some local space-sharing can be encouraged and maybe a bit of heat taken out of the issue. This is one of the hot issues each summer and it would be good to get people cooperating and working practically on the ground at a grass roots level. This can bring about a new context. Its absolutely NOT about obnoxious parades being forced on anyone nor about stopping parades altogether its about attitude change no all sides, taking the heat out of the issue, and working to do things better and more locally-agreed where this can be done in the context of a working-toghether framework.

[tiocfaidh]

You are ignoring the fact that the Parades Commission allows all loyalist parades along the Crumlin Road and through Rasharkin to proceed.

Sorry, I wasn't clear on that. What I meant was that the sum of the whole parading decisions are so lopsidedly against nationalists that nationalists essentially NEED to NOT lose ground on any areas where decisions are currently in their favour (such as Garvaghy Road), and ideally the new bodies need to make inroads on some of the areas where rulings should be reversed in favour of nationalists (such as Crumlin road/Ardoyne and Rasharkin). I should have worded my earlier posts better. SF really needs to be fighting for bodies that understand Rasharkin must go and some progress on the Crumlin Road parades must happen, but in those areas "slow and steady progress" will probably keep the masses happy. There will be hell to pay, though, if any new body starts moving backward on Garvaghy.