The facts of the hunger strikes have already been established

[Katayusha Mk2]

Listen to yourself, Mr Integrity.

By 'draft' I assume you mean a verbal communication emanating from spooks. That does not constitute a draft document. It constitutes a verbal communication emanating spooks and as such is deniable. Perhaps no one has told you that a verbal agreement is not worth the paper it's written on.

Twomey's letter even says the British were not prepared to give the RM sight of any document until the very last minute - by which time they presumably would have briefed the world's media that the hunger strike was off. The words 'elephant trap' spring to mind.

Now really, this is amateur stuff.

The words 'elephant sh1te' spring to mind. As usual you are being dishonest. Here is what the OP stated:

The British had their offer in writing ready to go into the prison and to the press – this is now a matter of historical record, thanks to FOI (Freedom of Information) release of documents.

“The statement has now been read and we await provo reactions (we would be willing to allow them a sight of the document just before it is given to the prisoners and released to the press)” – Extract from a Telegram from the Northern Ireland Office to the Cabinet Office.

This internal document is very clear about the sequence of events the British were going to follow.

All they were waiting for was the word of Gerry Adams, to tell them the prisoners would accept the offer.

Adams had the offer in writing otherwise it could not have been read, there was sufficient time to transcribe it and relay it to the prison leadership. This has all been proven with primary source evidence. What you are grasping at here, in your attempt to mislead, is the British statement that would have been issued had the offer been accepted

I do have to wonder what your motivations are in all of this, you being 'not a shinner' and all. You'll be telling us that Gerry Adams wasn't in the Ra next.

[picador]

“The statement has now been read and we await provo reactions (we would be willing to allow them a sight of the document just before it is given to the prisoners and released to the press)” – Extract from a Telegram from the Northern Ireland Office to the Cabinet Office.

Twomey's letter even says the British were not prepared to give the RM sight of any document until the very last minute.

You really are trying to tell me black is white. That is what I object to.

Now unless you can show that the RM had access to a British government document (and by that I mean more than a verbal communication emanating from spooks) setting out in full the terms and conditions on offer for the settlement of the hunger strike on the terms claimed I really think that you should wind your neck in because despite all your bluster and abuse, you are unable to substantiate the conspiracy.

[Katayusha Mk2]

“The statement has now been read and we await provo reactions (we would be willing to allow them a sight of the document just before it is given to the prisoners and released to the press)” – Extract from a Telegram from the Northern Ireland Office to the Cabinet Office.

Twomey's letter even says the British were not prepared to give the RM sight of any document until the very last minute.

You really are trying to tell me black is white. That is what I object to.

Now unless you can show that the RM had access to a British government document (and by that I mean more than a verbal communication emanating from spooks) setting out in full the terms and conditions on offer for the settlement of the hunger strike on the terms claimed I really think that you should wind your neck in because despite all your bluster and abuse, you are unable to substantiate the conspiracy.

The document, which was released under the FOIA was delivered by Brendan Duddy. He has confirmed this and verified the document. The Brits are talking about their statement that would accompany the end of the hunger strike.

As usual you are trying to pick holes in the minutae in an effort to obscure the big picture. Tell us why the shinners for years denied point blank that any offer had been made in the first place.

[picador]

No I simply interpreted document to mean the document, the magic one.

So the magic document is the aforementioned verbal communication emanating from spooks. One more time a verbal agreement is not worth the paper it's written on. Especially when it involves snake-oil salesmen. Schoolboy stuff!

As for the big picture, is that the one where Gerry Adams starved six men to death in order to get elected, sell out the armed struggle and sign a book deal?

The version of the hunger strike given in 10 Men Dead is for propaganda purposes. A legitimate reason why the leadership might have suppressed any mention of the 'offer' is because they neither wished to provide ammunition to their adversaries, internal and external, nor to further upset the families of the hunger strikers.

But hey, the Brits were the good guys!

[Katayusha Mk2]

No I simply interpreted document to mean the document, the magic one.

So the magic document is the aforementioned verbal communication emanating from spooks. One more time a verbal agreement is not worth the paper it's written on. Especially when it involves snake-oil salesmen. Schoolboy stuff!

I can believe you or Brendan Duddy. Brendan Duddy is well regarded as a man of integrity and you are..........

As for the big picture is that the one where Gerry Adams starved six men to death in order to get elected, sell out the armed struggle and sign a book deal?

Show me where I've stated any of that, try and stick to the debate at hand rather than deceit.

The version of the hunger strike given in 10 Men Dead it for propaganda propaganda. A legitimate reason why the leadership might have suppressed any mention of the 'offer' is because they neither wished to provide ammunition to their adversaries, internal and external, nor to further upset the families of the hunger strikers.

So, I'll ask you again why the offer was withheld from the hunger strikers, their families and the leadership of the Republican Movement....were they 'adversaries'?

But hey, the Brits were the good guys!

Again, show where I've stated that. Ironic that this would be the fallback position for you shinners when you are now Britain's allies; the British policy party even.

[thefuture Initiative]

Some comment in this thread are smug, ignorant and unpatriotic in the highest order. How can anyone look at the manoeuverings of British military intelligence/Thatcher/foreign imperialism as against the self-less sacrafice of ordinary people in defence of their and our national rights, and in defence of the rights of humanity.

What did any of the prisioners have to gain for themselves? The British were defending their whole imperialist system! They have slandered Irish patriots, as they have done for generations, as they slander resistance to their unjust military rule everywhere in the world. These are the same forces that have bombed innocent people all over the world and continue to do so.

I certaintly would never feel comfortable repeating the same lies that they have put out.

[picador]

I don't dispute what Brendan Duddy has to say. He was given a message over the phone by a British intelligence officer. He passed it on. The republican leaders who received the message passed it on to the prison leadership. Ultimately no 'offer' went before the Army Council because the British government refused to substantiate the contents of the telephone message in an indepedently verifiable form.

Mention of the message and the fact that prisoners had discussed it was omitted from Ten Men Dead to prevent contemporary and future enemies of the emerging Adams-McGuinness leadership from making precisely the sort of accusations and insinuations that are being thrown around now.

What happened and why it happened should be explained to the families of the hungers strikers - in private - if it has not already been done so.

[mutley]

You guys are paid to believe every word of it. So I won't try to stop you.

FFS Picador, taking your lead from Dark Angel? Have ye no cop on at all?

[Katayusha Mk2]

I don't dispute what Brendan Duddy has to say. He was given a message over the phone by a British intelligence officer. He passed it on. The republican leaders who received the message passed it on to the prison leadership. Ultimately no 'offer' went before the Army Council because the British government refused to substantiate the contents of the telephone message.

Duddy received the details of the offer which he gave directly to Martin McGuinness who passed them to Adams. For them to fail to inform the full Army Council of these negotiations was treason under the IRA constitution. To say that they were waiting for something on paper before informing the AC is patently ridiculous. At least you accept that the offer was accepted by the prison leadership but rejected by the Kitchen Cabinet without consultation with the AC, the hunger strikers or their families.

Mention of the message and the fact that prisoners had discussed it was omitted from Ten Men Dead to prevent contemporary and future enemies of the emerging Adams-McGuinness leadership from making precisely the sort of accusations and insinuations that are being thrown around now.

Who told you this?
You have essentially just revealed that the Mountain Climber details were withheld from Beresford and as such the coverup has been going on now for decades (Ten Men Dead being published in the mid '80s). You're essentially admitting that the Kitchen Cabinet were wrong and have consciously covered it up ever since. This has carried on into the present day and can be exemplified by the interviews where leading shinners have lied about said details.

What happened and why it happened should be explained to the families of the hungers strikers - in private - if it has not already been done so.

Your attitude is in stark contrast to that of your party leadership who have consistently attempted to use the families as an emotional shield to further the crumbling facade of the coverup, such as the mainpulation at Gulladuff. History belongs to us all, not a select few who politicians cravenly abuse in order to hide their misdeeds.

[picador]

No one told me anything and it is a long long time since I read Ten Men Dead. I'm not in a position to reveal that anything was withheld from David Beresford but as it was the standard republican narrative for twenty odd years it stands to reason that at least some of what transpired does not form part of the text. I did not say that what you amusingly term the Kitchen Cabinet was wrong. I merely advanced a possible explanation for why a less than full disclosure was made at the time (there was a war of sorts in process, you may remember). I am not a member of Sinn Féin and I never have been. It's clear that they are trying to maintain a line on the issue and that this in turn is further winding up some of their more demented former followers, who were happy to be lied to so long as the war was on. So far as the Army Council is concerned R Ó B has said he does not believe that the A/C knew so until there is any advance on that we remain in the realm of speculation. In my personal view anyone who'd settled with the Brits in that climate in the absence of verifiable assurances would have been a damned fool and would have been shown up as such long ago.