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  1. #1
    edifice. edifice. is offline

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    Ogra SF and Policing

    Spotted this on Indymedia. Is this an official position on behalf of OSF?
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  2. #2
    Cael Cael is offline

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    Re: Ogra SF and Policing

    Quote Originally Posted by edifice.
    Spotted this on Indymedia. Is this an official position on behalf of OSF?

    A very good article and a breath of fresh air to see that logic is finding its way out into the light. Though its implications go much further than just British police for a British system of injustice. If you reject the police, how can you not reject the whole system that the PSNI/RUC are simply paid to police?

    A quote from Slavoj Zizek, philosopher and psychoanalyst, may produce some food for thought to those who still insist that the GFA is the "only show in town":

    "Even in much of today's progressive politics, the danger is not passivity but pseudo-activity, the urge to be active and participate. People intervene all the time attempting to 'do something'; the truely difficult thing is to step back and withdraw from it. Those in power often prefer to see a critical participation to silence - just to engage us in a dialogue, to make sure that our ominous passivity is broken. Against such an interpassive mode, in which we are active all the time to make sure nothing will really change, the truely critical step is to withdraw into passivity and to refuse to participate. This first step clears the ground for a true activity, for an act that will effectively change the coordinates of the scene." (Emphasis in original). Zizek, How to read Lacan, 2006.
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  3. #3
    Bogwarrior Bogwarrior is offline

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    Thank God for the Internet.
    Years ago this letter would have got as far as the bin in No.44.
    Objective, self probing, and lucid. Best Ogra statement yet.
    Official policy? Lets wait and see.
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  4. #4
    Skin Skin is offline

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    It puts up a good arguement. But OSF fails to outline an alternative method to introducing the policing they want. Transfering policing powers to the Northern Assembly is by no means an end in itself.
    Either you are prepared to negotiate with your enemies or you are not, what is offered it the GFA is a negotiation - far from a final settlement, far from being completley adequate, but it has been enough to broadly end the hostilities.
    Republicans who dismiss negotiation, are in effect dismissing the concept of republicanism itself.
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  5. #5
    Cael Cael is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skin
    It puts up a good arguement. But OSF fails to outline an alternative method to introducing the policing they want. Transfering policing powers to the Northern Assembly is by no means an end in itself.
    Either you are prepared to negotiate with your enemies or you are not, what is offered it the GFA is a negotiation - far from a final settlement, far from being completley adequate, but it has been enough to broadly end the hostilities.
    Republicans who dismiss negotiation, are in effect dismissing the concept of republicanism itself.
    The article in no way rejects negotiation, just a particular outcome of negotiation which the PSF leadership seem to have accepted.

    I thought the following paragraph put the problem very well:

    "The potential setbacks for the struggle cannot be underestimated if we give credence to such a failed system to clinch a short-term deal with right-wing unionists and the British government. The pitfall within the current debate is its parameters. We can’t allow ourselves to be reduced to a discussion on reform of a British system. We must debate how we can develop and implement a policing and criminal justice model for Ireland now, or in the future. To do so we cannot put the noose of this failed system around our necks."
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  6. #6
    edifice. edifice. is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cael
    Quote Originally Posted by Skin
    It puts up a good arguement. But OSF fails to outline an alternative method to introducing the policing they want. Transfering policing powers to the Northern Assembly is by no means an end in itself.
    Either you are prepared to negotiate with your enemies or you are not, what is offered it the GFA is a negotiation - far from a final settlement, far from being completley adequate, but it has been enough to broadly end the hostilities.
    Republicans who dismiss negotiation, are in effect dismissing the concept of republicanism itself.
    The article in no way rejects negotiation, just a particular outcome of negotiation which the PSF leadership seem to have accepted.

    I thought the following paragraph put the problem very well:

    "The potential setbacks for the struggle cannot be underestimated if we give credence to such a failed system to clinch a short-term deal with right-wing unionists and the British government. The pitfall within the current debate is its parameters. We can’t allow ourselves to be reduced to a discussion on reform of a British system. We must debate how we can develop and implement a policing and criminal justice model for Ireland now, or in the future. To do so we cannot put the noose of this failed system around our necks."
    The GFA sets down the parameters of their debate. It seems that this article represents a realisation of this.
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  7. #7
    DOD DOD is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skin
    It puts up a good arguement. But OSF fails to outline an alternative method to introducing the policing they want. Transfering policing powers to the Northern Assembly is by no means an end in itself.
    Either you are prepared to negotiate with your enemies or you are not, what is offered it the GFA is a negotiation - far from a final settlement, far from being completley adequate, but it has been enough to broadly end the hostilities.
    Republicans who dismiss negotiation, are in effect dismissing the concept of republicanism itself.
    No offence Skin but that is very wishy washy and the type of 'confidence in our position' claptrap that is all too common in these discussions. It is fair enough accepting compromises, that is part and parcel of politics. However I hate the trick that more moderate elements of SF of making everything 'a site of struggle.' I have no problem with people who genuinely want to make an argument in favour of current policing arrangements, power-sharing with far-right neanderthals in the DUP or coalition with the right in the 26 counties. If thay are prepared to endorse those positions and want to make a reasoned argument, fine. However, at least be honest enough to acknowledge that in taking on such projects , we are seriously restricted in what can be achieved. If policing is accepted in current circumstances, it will be fundamentally tied in with the 6 county state. There will be some small cpsmetic little changes, but it will only be as community orientated as the two partitionist governments that concocted these arrangements are allowing them to be. Personally, I think we need to think outside the box on policing. With te history of the six counties, policing needs to be totally decentralised.

    By all means suport policing if you want to, support coalition with tweedle dumb or tweedle dumber if you want, supportpower-sharing with far-right fanatics if you want, but don't give us the line about doing it to change from within, because what you will be able to change in those circumstances, as a very small part of the puzzle (which is all SF would be) is extremely limited.

    As for your line on rejecting negotiations (and I have to agree with the poster, possibly cael, who pointed out that no one was saying that) being the same as rejecting republicanism? Where did you pull that one out of. I must admit, as a SF poster, trying to do his best to promote the party, I get very frustrated by some of the more moderate elements of the party and the patronising way they deal with those who have legitimate ideological concerns. I apologise if it sounds like I am attacking you, but while I believe in party discipline, keeping discussion internal etc, sometimes when your buttons are pushed, you have to respond.
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  8. #8
    DOD DOD is offline

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    Re: Ogra SF and Policing

    Quote Originally Posted by Cael
    Quote Originally Posted by edifice.
    Spotted this on Indymedia. Is this an official position on behalf of OSF?

    A very good article and a breath of fresh air to see that logic is finding its way out into the light. Though its implications go much further than just British police for a British system of injustice. If you reject the police, how can you not reject the whole system that the PSNI/RUC are simply paid to police?

    .
    Not meaning to blow my own trumpet or anything, but if you go to the archive section on http://******************************************************************************.blogspot.com (either October or November, you will see two letters critical of policing or the rush to endorse it. One was written by m and one by another Ógra activist. They are not as substantive as this obviously, as they are quite short, but it just shows you that this guy is not a lone voice in Ógra. (or Sinn Féin for that matter) Both those letters also appeared in APRN.
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  9. #9
    McCann McCann is offline

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    Someone has to police the six counties. Let's be realistic. Ignoring the fact that the British currently occupy the North isn't going to make it go away. Sinn Fein should sign up to policing, not least because it would leave the DUP without a choice other than power sharing (although I'm pretty sure they'll think of something else, in which case, Sinn Fein will have a strong argument against their demands). I'd rather have more chance of an equal police force than simply ignore it and let it return to the RUC under a different name.
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  10. #10
    Cael Cael is offline

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    Re: Ogra SF and Policing

    Quote Originally Posted by DOD
    Quote Originally Posted by Cael
    Quote Originally Posted by edifice.
    Spotted this on Indymedia. Is this an official position on behalf of OSF?

    A very good article and a breath of fresh air to see that logic is finding its way out into the light. Though its implications go much further than just British police for a British system of injustice. If you reject the police, how can you not reject the whole system that the PSNI/RUC are simply paid to police?

    .
    Not meaning to blow my own trumpet or anything, but if you go to the archive section on http://******************************************************************************.blogspot.com (either October or November, you will see two letters critical of policing or the rush to endorse it. One was written by m and one by another Ógra activist. They are not as substantive as this obviously, as they are quite short, but it just shows you that this guy is not a lone voice in Ógra. (or Sinn Féin for that matter) Both those letters also appeared in APRN.
    Had a look at your letter, and had a look at the rest of the site too, I think you are swimming against the tide a bit, but you are to be commended all the more for that. But to me accepting the PSNI is not the central issue. If you are going to accept British law in Ireland, there really is no logic to not accepting British police to enforce it.
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