Hijab debate on Pat Kenny Show

[Mujaahid]

Today in a discussion on the hijab issue Pat Kenny was joined by noted Irish feminist Martina Devlin and pro-hijab writer Breda O'Brien along with GMC PRO Su'ad Egan . Listen to the debate here.http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/

Ms Egan mentioned the intrinsic right to education and how hijab actually facilitates the Muslim woman's engagement in the public domain. She spoke about the right to freedom of religion and the emancipation that the hijab brings. Ms Devlin attempted to introduce a number of fallacious slippery slope arguments which were summarily dismissed as having little relevance. The irony of it all is that in introducing such arguments she sees nothing wrong in the proposed erosion of the women's right to choose.

Ms Devlin offensively infers that a twelve year old Muslim girl/woman cannot make a choice but sheepishly sidelines the glaring inconsistencies of her argument. If a twelve year old Muslim girl is incapable of making a choice doesn't it follow that all twelve year old girls are incapable of making such a choice and that the short skirts, make-up, piercings etc are simply throwbacks of an enforced culture, if not, why not?

Ms Devlin was effectively silenced by a woman she considers 'suppressed and repressed' - oh, the irony!!!!

[QuizMaster]

You're not just a little bit biased there by any chance?
Would you care to delcare an interest?

[Aindriu]

You're not just a little bit biased there by any chance?
Would you care to delcare an interest?

The Muslim female in the debate is his wife!

Back so soon Liam?

[Jozer]

Look Muj, we are westerners. We just don't want to live in a society where all women dress like 7th Century Arab concubines. If we did we'd all move to Saudi arabia. Is it that hard to understand? We communicate with our faces, and we find covering of a persons face creepy. Sure some Muslim women choose to dress like that, and others have that choice made for them, in some cases by threat of violence. So what? We just don't want our countries Islamified. Get over yourself. If you're so fond of Islam, go and live in an Islamic country. They certainly don't have any problem expecting visitors to abide by their standards.

[QuizMaster]

As it happens I support freedom of choice with the hijab.

But I would prefer an honest declaration of interest in a case like this.

[DS-147]

Today in a discussion on the hijab issue Pat Kenny was joined by noted Irish feminist Martina Devlin and pro-hijab writer Breda O'Brien along with GMC PRO Su'ad Egan . Listen to the debate here.http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/

Ms Egan mentioned the intrinsic right to education and how hijab actually facilitates the Muslim woman's engagement in the public domain. She spoke about the right to freedom of religion and the emancipation that the hijab brings. Ms Devlin attempted to introduce a number of fallacious slippery slope arguments which were summarily dismissed as having little relevance. The irony of it all is that in introducing such arguments she sees nothing wrong in the proposed erosion of the women's right to choose.

Ms Devlin offensively infers that a twelve year old Muslim girl/woman cannot make a choice but sheepishly sidelines the glaring inconsistencies of her argument. If a twelve year old Muslim girl is incapable of making a choice doesn't it follow that all twelve year old girls are incapable of making such a choice and that the short skirts, make-up, piercings etc are simply throwbacks of an enforced culture, if not, why not?

Ms Devlin was effectively silenced by a woman she considers 'suppressed and repressed' - oh, the irony!!!!

I have no problem with teenagers and adults alike wearing whatever they wish on their own time. However in school, we were all expected to wear our uniform without glaring additions to it. If a person is in a workplace and has to wear a uniform or abide a dress-code the same should apply, irrespective of religious beliefs.

[Mujaahid]

Look Muj, we are westerners. We just don't want to live in a society where all women dress like 7th Century Arab concubines. If we did we'd all move to Saudi arabia. Is it that hard to understand? We communicate with our faces, and we find covering of a persons face creepy. Sure some Muslim women choose to dress like that, and others have that choice made for them, in some cases by threat of violence. So what? We just don't want our countries Islamified. Get over yourself. If you're so fond of Islam, go and live in an Islamic country. They certainly don't have any problem expecting visitors to abide by their standards.

I understand that, but you don't live in a society where ALL women dress that way - you do live in a society where ALL women should have the choice to do so if they wish - it's an issue of choice. By and large we are not talking about face coverings so conflating the issue with unsubstantiated fears doesn't aid the discussion. However, even with the niqab, we must still consider the issue of choice - the removal of which is tantamount to a violation of religious freedom. Perhaps it's time for people to take a step back and ask themselves the worth of their societal values if they are considered under threat by a piece of cloth.

Aindriu - why ever would you expect me to leave?

Quizmaster - of course I have a vested interest, hardly undeclared!

[QuizMaster]

Today in a discussion on the hijab issue Pat Kenny was joined by noted Irish feminist Martina Devlin and pro-hijab writer Breda O'Brien along with GMC PRO Su'ad Egan . Listen to the debate here.http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/

Ms Egan mentioned the intrinsic right to education and how hijab actually facilitates the Muslim woman's engagement in the public domain. She spoke about the right to freedom of religion and the emancipation that the hijab brings. Ms Devlin attempted to introduce a number of fallacious slippery slope arguments which were summarily dismissed as having little relevance. The irony of it all is that in introducing such arguments she sees nothing wrong in the proposed erosion of the women's right to choose.

Ms Devlin offensively infers that a twelve year old Muslim girl/woman cannot make a choice but sheepishly sidelines the glaring inconsistencies of her argument. If a twelve year old Muslim girl is incapable of making a choice doesn't it follow that all twelve year old girls are incapable of making such a choice and that the short skirts, make-up, piercings etc are simply throwbacks of an enforced culture, if not, why not?

Ms Devlin was effectively silenced by a woman she considers 'suppressed and repressed' - oh, the irony!!!!

I have no problem with teenagers and adults alike wearing whatever they wish on their own time. However in school, we were all expected to wear our uniform without glaring additions to it. If a person is in a workplace and has to wear a uniform or abide a dress-code the same should apply, irrespective of religious beliefs.

That's a nonsensical argument.
You are talking about laws meant to catch out body peircings, stilettoes, ripped jeans, over-exposure etc. These laws are not meant to entrap religious observance and you know it.
Or maybe you don't want nuns wearing their habits in the workplace (including hospitals), or anyone wearing a crucifix around their neck.
All over the world it is common practice to allow religious wear. Indeed most police forces have a "uniform" turban for Sikhs.
We in the west pride ourselves on freedom of choice. It is the badge by which we distinguish ourselves from the rest of the world. Well let's uphold it, and give an object lesson to anyone coming to live here.

[QuizMaster]

Mujaahid, answer me this:
Would you like to see young women in Saudi Arabia (and other countries) free to go about the place bare-headed? You were saying there you support freedom of choice.

[Aindriu]

Indeed most police forces have a "uniform" turban for Sikhs.
We in the west pride ourselves on freedom of choice. It is the badge by which we distinguish ourselves from the rest of the world. Well let's uphold it, and give an object lesson to anyone coming to live here.

We don't. Remember the sikh who wanted to join the Garda reserve?

No religious symbols should on open show whilst wearing school uniform sin é. The wearing of the hijab in school uniform clearly identifies the children wearing it as being in a minority and that is not what school uniform is about. The whole idea behind school uniform is in the name 'uniform' meaning the same. It is designed to stop students looking different from one another and preventing poor students being made to feel inferior to more wealthy ones. Look at the US system where the cool kids have the latest designer labels and those that don't are ostracised and made to feel inferior.