Lisbon YES= Democracy RIP

[Ballyhoo]

I can't get my head around the fact that we are being asked to vote again. We already said no. The new provisions for Ireland don't change the treaty which we already rejected. WTF. This is actually surreal. Everybody is entitled to vote either YES or NO but, if you vote NO we have to do it again and the second time you have to vote YES. I'm sorry but the fact that Lisbon2 is even taking place means the end of Democracy in Europe.

[covert ops]

It's quite easy to get one's head around.

Look at divorce. In the 1980s we had a referendum, which was rejected. Some years later the government of the day decided to put it to a vote again, feeling that public opinion may have changed. It passed. Is that undemocratic?

Elections are held on the same basis - that people may change their mind after a period of time and express a different view. Is that undemocratic?

The only difference with Lisbon I and II is timescale. Will you be saying it's undemocratic if the people vote no again? Grow up.

[kerdasi amaq]

Well, if it had been a YES vote the first time round: they would never hold a second referendum no matter how many people wanted it. The Peoples' vote is not being respected. There is no popular demand for this vote. The only good point is that FF are cruisin' for a bruisin'!

[He3]

It's quite easy to get one's head around.

Look at divorce. In the 1980s we had a referendum, which was rejected. Some years later the government of the day decided to put it to a vote again, feeling that public opinion may have changed. It passed. Is that undemocratic?

Elections are held on the same basis - that people may change their mind after a period of time and express a different view. Is that undemocratic?

The only difference with Lisbon I and II is timescale. Will you be saying it's undemocratic if the people vote no again? Grow up.

False comparison.

The proposed law on divorce was radically different the second time round as was the referendum wording itself, when it was put ten years after the first proposal had been rejected.

Did you really not know that?

[Rocky]

I can't get my head around the fact that we are being asked to vote again. We already said no. The new provisions for Ireland don't change the treaty which we already rejected. WTF. This is actually surreal. Everybody is entitled to vote either YES or NO but, if you vote NO we have to do it again and the second time you have to vote YES. I'm sorry but the fact that Lisbon2 is even taking place means the end of Democracy in Europe.

In which case Democracy ended in Europe in 1993, when Denmark voted a second time on the Maastricht Treaty or in 2002 when we voted twice on the Nice Treaty.

On top of that you do not have to vote yes the second time and I imagine many people won't.

Can people some setting up stupid threads. The Constitution, which is there to protect democracy clearly allows the Oireachtas to run referendums on the same issue twice. That is one of the powers we give to TDs when we vote for them. If you don't like the decision they make with that power, then vote for someone else next time.

[darkhorse]

Your theory is that 2 votes is not democracy?
Rubbish. If they pushed through the Amendment without a vote then thats not democracy.
2 votes is double democracy - to be sure to be sure.
How many people were away on holidays in the last vote? How many didnt bother to vote? Now they all have a chance

[Des Groome]

Actually this new deal-i.e. the Lisbon Treaty with assurances attached for Ireland -represents a triumph of Irish Democracy over European Bureaucracy. We can now vote YES- to keep our commissioner. AND safe in the Knowledge that we can opt out of any solidarity clause we like, we can have our cake and eat it in Europe .We can enjoy a seat at the table without having to participate militarily, because they have told us twice our neutrality is not affected..
The issues the NO lobby raised last time have been dealt with.
Do you now have any new issues to raise? Any new reasons to vote No... If you have, fair enough , lets hear about them...

[Ballyhoo]

It's quite easy to get one's head around.

Look at divorce. In the 1980s we had a referendum, which was rejected. Some years later the government of the day decided to put it to a vote again, feeling that public opinion may have changed. It passed. Is that undemocratic?

Elections are held on the same basis - that people may change their mind after a period of time and express a different view. Is that undemocratic?

The only difference with Lisbon I and II is timescale. Will you be saying it's undemocratic if the people vote no again? Grow up.

Well, given that I'm already 48 years old, I will try my best to grow up but I can't guarantee it will happen. And yes, irregardless of the result, the process is fundamentally undemocratic.

[Sucker Punch]

Actually this new deal-i.e. the Lisbon Treaty with assurances attached for Ireland -represents a triumph of Irish Democracy over European Bureaucracy.

Nice of you to endorse the No capaign during Lisbon 1, can I ask you how did you vote?

[kerdasi amaq]

Those guarantees are worth nothing. They are only a fig-leaf to justify holding another referendum and to pretend that people's concerns are being dealt with. Everyone knows that and only a fool thinks otherwise. The real question is who is in control of the relationship between the Irish People and the EU which is created by the Lisbon Treaty. The people on this island will have no effective say in that.