Private polling and focus groups indicate Lisbon 2 may be lost: Sunday Times

[McDave]

A bit of a contradiction there?

No, there's no contradiction. The two paragraphs are two different scenarios - Lisbon failing and Lisbon succeeding.

The drivers behind European integration and the ever closer union of the peoples will not be content to see the EU deteriorate into a glorified trade area. If Lisbon fails, that's the way the EU will be going, so the core member states will make supplementary arrangements. If Lisbon passes, then the agreed compromise acceptable to all parties has been adopted, and the core states are relatively happy. That, as I see it, is the Realpolitik of EU integration.

[evercloserunion]

A bit of a contradiction there?

How? Surely if a two-speed Europe emerged than the Union would be called into question?

[edifice.]

No, there's no contradiction. The two paragraphs are two different scenarios - Lisbon failing and Lisbon succeeding.

The drivers behind European integration and the ever closer union of the peoples will not be content to see the EU deteriorate into a glorified trade area. If Lisbon fails, that's the way the Eu will be going, so the core member states will make supplementary arrangements. If Lisbon passes, then the agreed compromise acceptable to all parties has been adopted, and the core states are relatively happy. That, as I see it, is the Realpolitik of EU integration.

Strange concept given the fact that they'd rather not have the peoples determimg the future of Europe. Regardless, what existing treaty allows for some members to make supplementary arrangements?

[evercloserunion]

Strange concept given the fact that they'd rather not have the peoples determimg the future of Europe. Regardless, what existing treaty allows for some members to make supplementary arrangements?

Actually the Lisbon Treaty increases the power of the most directly elected institution of the EU so I think it's a move towards a Europe of peoples. Remember that the EU does not dictate how each country ratifies treaties, that's down to the member states and their constitutions.

[Wakeupcall]

Strange concept given the fact that they'd rather not have the peoples determimg the future of Europe. Regardless, what existing treaty allows for some members to make supplementary arrangements?

Indeed

[He3]

Actually the Lisbon Treaty increases the power of the most directly elected institution of the EU so I think it's a move towards a Europe of peoples. [...]

a Europe of the beautiful people...

http://www.politics.ie/foreign-affai...arliament.html

[JCR]

This is why i'm considering voting no (voted yes last time like a good European). I want these clowns out of Government, my parochialism comes first i'm afraid.

Using your vote on Lisbon to get FF out is a waste of time. It won't work and probably will make us even more dependent on FF.

[edifice.]

Actually the Lisbon Treaty increases the power of the most directly elected institution of the EU so I think it's a move towards a Europe of peoples. Remember that the EU does not dictate how each country ratifies treaties, that's down to the member states and their constitutions.

I know, and when member state's people's exercise that contrary to their view they seek ways to circumvent it.

[edifice.]

How? Surely if a two-speed Europe emerged than the Union would be called into question?

But what treaty allows for this?

[JCR]

They're trying to bully us this time so maybe they'll try to slip us a bung for the third go.

The Germans will take over NAMA, the French will underwrite the bank guarantee and the Bulgarians will poke Harney in the foot with an umbrella.

Who is trying to bully who?

As for the Germans taking over NAMA I wish they would, as for the French underwriting the banks, great. Or hang on thats whats happening already, without the ECB we would be gone, bust, screwed. A no to Lisbon just isn't wise.