What happens if Lisbon II is defeated?

[anewbeginning]

Surely that will be the end of it, Lisbon will be binned, something will be cobbled up in the European Parliamant, etc.

I guess why Lisbon is being voted on in Ireland is because it will change the Irish Constitution.

In effect when voting in Lisbon referenda, we are voting for a new Irish Constitution, although none of the politicians will put it that way.

Isn't it the case that Constitutions across Europe are also being changed by Lisbon. In effect parliamentarians are using Lisbon to change their constitutions.

Is this not the corner stone of the Lisbon debate? That parliamentarians alone should not be allowed change their own constitution. Because if they are and allowed bypass the people, eventually the day will come when parliamentarians can have it written into their constitutions that there will be no elections from now on and parliamentarians can stay in office forever, or similar measures.

Am I understanding this all wrong?

Is Ireland the last bulwark against an EU dictatorship, through our willingness to hold referenda on these matters?

And if we defeat Lisbon II, willl there be Lisbon III, IV and V?

[TommyO'Brien]

Surely that will be the end of it, Lisbon will be binned, something will be cobbled up in the European Parliamant, etc.

I guess why Lisbon is being voted on in Ireland is because it will change the Irish Constitution.

In effect when voting in the Lisbon referenda, we are voting for a new Irish Constitution, although none of the politicians will put it that way.

Isn't it the case that Constitutions across Europe are also being changed by Lisbon. In effect parliamentarians are using Lisbon to change their constitutions.

Is this not the corner stone of the Lisbon debate? That parliamentarians alone should not be allowed change their own constitution. Because if they are and allowed bypass the people, eventually the day will come when parliamentarians can have it written into their constitutions that there will be no elections from now on and parliamentarians can stay in office forever, or similar measures.

Am I understanding this all wrong?

Totally wrong.

[jpc]

Interesting point you raise there.
Add in the fact that national parliaments are voting to relegate themselves to errandboys as well.
The council of ministers, the commision and the MEPs are the bosses the moment this is ratified.

[anewbeginning]

Totally wrong.

So the Constitutions of Ireland, the UK, France, Germany and so on are in no way impacted by the Lisbon Treaty?

Phew! And there was me thinking everything was going to be changed after Lisbon and our Constitution was going to become irrelevant and individual nation states were going to become irrelevant as we took our orders from the fuhrer's in Europe.

[kerrynorth]

What happens if Lisbon II is defeated?

War, famine, pestilence - but not necessarily in that order.

[molloyjh]

So the Constitutions of Ireland, the UK, France, Germany and so on are in no way impacted by the Lisbon Treaty?

Phew! And there was me thinking everything was going to be changed after Lisbon and our Constitution was going to become irrelevant and individual nation states were going to become irrelevant as we took our orders from the fuhrer's in Europe.

Luckily you were totqally wrong alright! While our Constitution is being impacted (ever so slightly as it happens) I don't think the others actually are at all. Our Constitution will remain as relevant as it is today as will our Government (which is not very, but that's a wholw other domestic politics debate!!!).

[molloyjh]

Surely that will be the end of it, Lisbon will be binned, something will be cobbled up in the European Parliamant, etc.

I guess why Lisbon is being voted on in Ireland is because it will change the Irish Constitution.

In effect when voting in Lisbon referenda, we are voting for a new Irish Constitution, although none of the politicians will put it that way.

Isn't it the case that Constitutions across Europe are also being changed by Lisbon. In effect parliamentarians are using Lisbon to change their constitutions.

Is this not the corner stone of the Lisbon debate? That parliamentarians alone should not be allowed change their own constitution. Because if they are and allowed bypass the people, eventually the day will come when parliamentarians can have it written into their constitutions that there will be no elections from now on and parliamentarians can stay in office forever, or similar measures.

Am I understanding this all wrong?

Is Ireland the last bulwark against an EU dictatorship, through our willingness to hold referenda on these matters?

And if we defeat Lisbon II, willl there be Lisbon III, IV and V?

No we are not voting for a new Constitution. We are, technically speaking, voting on a very small wording change to our Constitution which is necessary for the Dail and Seanad to ratify Lisbon. And no, the other member states Constitutions are remaining as is AFAIK.

[irish_goat]

Given the likelihood of the Tories getting elected in Britain, if Lisbon II is defeated they will step in and ensure that the next EU step is much more to their liking. So who knows what will be cobbled out after that.

[Old Irish]

Ah sure I believe they have Robbie Keane on the Yes side surely they'll get a yes! (SARCASM)

[steady on now]

Surely that will be the end of it, Lisbon will be binned, something will be cobbled up in the European Parliamant, etc.

I guess why Lisbon is being voted on in Ireland is because it will change the Irish Constitution.

In effect when voting in Lisbon referenda, we are voting for a new Irish Constitution, although none of the politicians will put it that way.

Isn't it the case that Constitutions across Europe are also being changed by Lisbon. In effect parliamentarians are using Lisbon to change their constitutions.

Is this not the corner stone of the Lisbon debate? That parliamentarians alone should not be allowed change their own constitution. Because if they are and allowed bypass the people, eventually the day will come when parliamentarians can have it written into their constitutions that there will be no elections from now on and parliamentarians can stay in office forever, or similar measures.

Am I understanding this all wrong?

Is Ireland the last bulwark against an EU dictatorship, through our willingness to hold referenda on these matters?

And if we defeat Lisbon II, willl there be Lisbon III, IV and V?

There are no laws being broken, every country has a different constitutional system. The UK does not have a written constitution and its law can be changed by simple majority vote in the house of commons with only the ability to delay enactment by the house of Lords. The German constitution bans referenda ( as Hitler used them to consolidate power).

We in Ireland have to have a referendum due to our constitution, but obviously our constitution is unique to us. It is natural to think of our own being superior but it has its downsides, it is important to remember that there is a big difference between representative democracy where we elect representatives to do what is best for all of society and direct democracy where the will of the majority is enacted and the minority ignored.
Immanuel Kant the German philosopher warned against direct democracy as being the tyranny of the majority.
The closest example of a direct democracy is in Switzerland. This country decides most things by referenda but it only gave women the right to vote in 1972 and only joined the UN in 2002.

Ireland's constituitonal set up has its advantages but look at the present set up regarding under age sex and the need for a referendum to try to put into our constitution rules to deal with a very complex issue.