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About LinkBacksIf Lisbon 2 is defeated then thats two Nos in a row which will be a double negative and as a result the treaty will be passed.
If Lisbon 2 is defeated then thats two Nos in a row which will be a double negative and as a result the treaty will be passed.
Are you positive?Originally Posted by Duth Ealla
If Lisbon 2 is defeated then thats two Nos in a row which will be a double negative and as a result the treaty will be passed.
F*** 'em. I wouldn't listen to them anyway!
The constitutions of the member States are affected.
Ideally constitutions were meant to be abstract, and just to precise how political bodies should work. Why? Because it is the privilege of modern nation to examine the reality publicly, to examine the whole gammut of possibilities, and to chose with a moral motivation.
That is what we call "political ideas" or "political debate", and it happened only within Western nations, not in "Europe".
Then, many people have tried in history to include their ideas in their constitution. Of course if you really believe in something, it is better for you if your ideas are not submitted to the assaults of the opposing parties.
But even including Human Rights in the constitution is in my view a decay. Because I believe the nations should renew their support of Human Rights everyday through observation of reality and moral intuition, not because some text says it. It could call that the sovereignty of intelligence and morality over the letter of the law.
The Lisbon treaty, which is the European Constitution reloaded, is a pathological attempt to lock the whole ideas of one party into the constitution. Namely it is the free market center-right allied to free pleasure center-left, i.e. we could call that the market society party. Not the market as an economy, but as a society. The debate then narrows between various flavours of market : center-left cool market with t-shirts or center-right serious market with ties, and true alternatives become illegal.
For example, if you want the State to take control of energy infrastructures, which is debatable in a democracy, with the European Constitution it becomes illegal.
The constitutions of member States are affected, because the European Constitution spreads so wide that it makes national constitutions the rules of local authorities. Let's say local authorities with flags and national day fireworks.
But... it is also the level of political intelligence which is affected, because the possibilities no longer existing, we no longer debate. For example in the case of Somalia, we see that something is agressive and we react against it, but we fail to debate why Africa has gone wrong. We have lost our historical culture.
The project of a universal population of individuals, isolated, nationless, familyless, caring only about their own person, is just a political opinion, not more not less absurd than communism, nationalism and other isms. It is just not good enough to become a constitution.
We have difficulties in calling it a coup d'état because it doesn't force collective industries or conditions of living, like bolchevism and fascism did. But instead it forces us to be alone and not to have common goals. We have all the rights to complain about everything for our own little person, but no right to unite and finance together our own local public services.
But other people will unite in the world, and we will be like genetically modified hens without feathers in a hen factory.
Last edited by arnaudherve; 28th June 2009 at 06:28 AM.
[size=1][color=grey]My name is Plissken[/color][/size]
I think it's important for everyone to agree on certain things.
One of these is that Lisbon is the EU Constitution. The Eurocrats put the Constitution out for referendum in France and Holland and in both places it received a resounding thumbs down.
So the Eurocrats decided to rename the Constitution as a Treaty and sneak it through using the parliaments and because the Eurocrats have complete and utter comtempt for the people they proport to represent, they assumed the people would be none the wiser.
A constitution codifies certain laws and practises. As the previous poster says, it will codify a ban on state ownership of electricity infrastructure. This means the Lisbon Treaty more closely resembles a Constitution with a far reaching impact on EU nations. There is no question another chunk of the independence of national states will be removed via Lisbon.
The major slight of hand by the Eurocrats in all of this, and the leaders of Europe, many of these leaders who have been subsequently found to be wholly corrupt, is that they renamed the EU Constitution as a Treaty. This removed the inconvience of asking the people their views via the ballot box on it. Luckily for Ireland we have a loophole which demands that any changes to the Constitution requires a referendum.
So my question again is, if the Lisbon Treaty changes the Irish Constitution, will it not change the Constitution of France, Spain, Italy etc or any EU member with a Constitution?
In my opinion politicians through parliaments should not be allowed change Constitutions. Only referenda should do this, because if you let politicians do it, inevitably they will change the constitution to suit them and their friends.
I will be voting No to Lisbon on the principle that the remainder of Europe was not asked to vote in a referendum on it.
If the Eurocrats have nothing to fear, then put it to the people.
Correct anewbeginning. What happened after the Franco-Dutch no votes was disgraceful and anti-democratic. Whatever about the legalities, it did not respect the spirit of the referenda decisions.
It would be quite easy for the Eurocrats to sort out all this.
They could have a simple referendum in each country across Europe, the wording something like this:
Do you want the EU to become a Federal Political Union with all the charachteristics of a Federal Political Union?
If the people vote Yes, then by all means go ahead with Lisbon/EU Constitution. If the people vote No, then produce a Treaty which omits anything that relates to a Federal Union.
Lisbon represents a major direction change for the EU, apparantly towards a Federal Union akin to the United States, and people are not being asked if they want to go down that direction but rather are being shoved down that direction.
Politicians are not the right people to choose what direction the EU should head in. They are vested interests, many of them are corrupt, many of them seem to be heavily influenced by secret organisations and rich business interests.
Paranoid rubbish.
All views expressed are my own.
All foreign investment will cease and we will be thrown out of the European Union.
"The perfect liberty they seek is the liberty of making slaves of other people." -- Abraham Lincoln
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A two word response usually demonstrates someone hasn't anything of significance to contribute.
I will be voting No.
