Lisbon 2 - how will you vote?

[Wakeupcall]

No

[Ah Well]

I think the comments in the press that leaders of EU states, including Gordon Brown, were fearful that the guarantees might result in further debate on Lisbon, are very telling. They obviously want to keep Lisbon out of the headlines and avoid much needed public debate.

They're out of luck there then, with 3 odd months of it going to be flying around pre Referendum ... plenty time for them to trip up, or stick their shoe into their gob or for the media to latch onto something not in their favour

[flamez911]

YES, grudgingly.

I voted NO the last time, and only decided the day before that I would- I felt that too little information had been given and even though it looked like a not-too-important document that did nothing but streamline the process and increase the power of elected bodies, I was overcome at the last minute by the failure of the YES leaders to combat some of the accusations- though I thought Libertas' ones were unfair.

I also don't *like* the idea of second referendums, but they are needed in some cases- divorce is a good example unless you're tompatrick, I don't think anyone here thinks that people should be forced into a marriage for life even if they don't love each other anymore. I think the guarantees are enough to assuage the concerns of people, and also the mood has shifted completely as seen in the Irish Times polls with Lisbon at 52-55% (regardless of what the NO campaigners say, Lisbon was never at over 50%, it was always around 44-46% in favor to 25-30% against up until the week before the referendum where it reached parity in the mid-40s. The YES support didn't collapse so much as the undecided voters (like myself) broke overwhelmingly to the NO side.

I think Lisbon is needed and even though I have concerns about some aspects of neoliberalism being enshrined in it, I know that there's never going to be any very left-wing governments (ie beyond moderate social-democrats) elected in Europe anytime soon, so I think increasing the democratic potential of Europe is more important.

Also, if it's defeated, it won't pass unless it's far more neoliberal because the Conservatives in the UK would rescind it and block any treaties with any tinge of social-democracy or European integration from passing while they're in government

[N17]

That smacks of arrogance which mirrors that of the FF gang in control of the country for the past 12 years - with the wheel of the car jacked up presently by the Greens.

The same gang who have contributed in no small way to the detriment of this country over many years. So they have their "Guarantees" which they "negotiated" on our behalf and everything's all fine and hunky dory now I wouldn't trust them to fill a baby's bathtub with water without managing to burn the child in the process.

And Cowen had the cheek yesterday (as per RTE.ie Report) to say that the No side must be disappointed - more typical arrogance.

Dick Roche - the only way to read the Lisbon Treaty is the way I read it.

Give me a break.

Well said . . . .and a resounding "NO"!!

[Arcadius]

That smacks of arrogance which mirrors that of the FF gang in control of the country for the past 12 years - with the wheel of the car jacked up presently by the Greens.

The same gang who have contributed in no small way to the detriment of this country over many years. So they have their "Guarantees" which they "negotiated" on our behalf and everything's all fine and hunky dory now I wouldn't trust them to fill a baby's bathtub with water without managing to burn the child in the process.

And Cowen had the cheek yesterday (as per RTE.ie Report) to say that the No side must be disappointed - more typical arrogance.

Dick Roche - the only way to read the Lisbon Treaty is the way I read it.

Give me a break.

So, you're voting 'No' to an EU treaty because you don't agree with the democratic decisions of the Irish people in 3 consecutive GEs over 12 years.
When will the arrogant Irish elites learn - 'FF' means 'FF'.

[FrankSpeaks]

Them terrible people. Imagine the nerve of people having a different view from you!

My problem is not with those who hold views different to mine, it is a fact that those who are anti-Lisbon are totally over represented on this site. One has only to look at the outcome of the local election vote in P.ie and compare it to the actual result!

[FutureTaoiseach]

My problem is not with those who hold views different to mine, it is a fact that those who are anti-Lisbon are totally over represented on this site. One has only to look at the outcome of the local election vote in P.ie and compare it to the actual result!

That poll was open to those who were not registered on this site though. The politics.ie exit-poll of Lisbon voters last year was quite close to the outcome.

[diablo]

We had lost the power to set our own interest rates long before we joined the Euro. Fact is that in order to be able to control interest rates, you need to be able to back your decisions with cold hard cash - so that if the markets disagree with the rate you've set, you can override their opinion. And it was conclusively proved in the 1992/93 devaluation that we are too small to do that. We jacked interest rates up again and again in a doomed attempt to preserve that value of the currency - but the markets saw the value we were ascribing as inappropriate, and forced us to back down.



You used the key word yourself there - control. Britain has the financial muscle to control its currency, hence they don't wish to share that control with anyone. We haven't the financial muscle to control our currency, so we made an economic and political decision to join the Euro.

We don't want to "control" our own currency, just the interest rates. 92/93 was because we were trying to control our currency and stay within the artificially created EMU bands in advance of the Euro launch. You seem to imply that a country the size of Ireland cannot realisitically have its own currency! Britain and US don't control their currencie either. They make policy decisions that can have impacts on the currency but they certainly can't do anything to set the value.

[Ah Well]

So, you're voting 'No' to an EU treaty because you don't agree with the democratic decisions of the Irish people in 3 consecutive GEs over 12 years.
When will the arrogant Irish elites learn - 'FF' means 'FF'.

It wasn't the Irish people who were/are engaged in the Lisbon Treaty negotations ... it was/is the crowd in charge of the country whose incompetence is well shown up by now .... how would their competence since then have miraculously improved in any shape or manner in their Lisbon dealings?

And furthermore;

1. FF got into power over past recent years by forming coalitions. The Electorate didn't vote sufficiently for them to enable their taking power without agreeing to do so with other Parties/Indepenents. The Irish people voted for parties or persons - they then had no control over which way parties/people came together to form a Government.

2. And I'd refer to the matter of the democratic decision of the Irish people almost 12 months ago to the day .... and that was No.

[garlandgreen]

It wasn't the Irish people who were/are engaged in the Lisbon Treaty negotations ... it was/is the crowd in charge of the country whose incompetence is well shown up by now .... how would their competence since then have miraculously improved in any shape or manner in their Lisbon dealings?

And furthermore;

1. FF got into power over past recent years by forming coalitions. The Electorate didn't vote sufficiently for them to enable their taking power without agreeing to do so with other Parties/Indepenents. The Irish people voted for parties or persons - they then had no control over which way parties/people came together to form a Government.

2. And I'd refer to the matter of the democratic decision of the Irish people almost 12 months ago to the day .... and that was No.

So if they say yes in October then you'll have no problem?