Lisbon 2 - how will you vote?

[hiding behind a poster]

Anyone see the Brown/Cameron clash in the HOC this afternoon?

The PM made it crystal clear there is NO CHANGE in the terms of the Lisbon Treaty made within the protocols given to the Irish.

The Protocols are merely clarifications of what is already in the Treaty.

The British PM is absolutely correct. What's your point?

[FutureTaoiseach]

Wrong. EU treaties come along all the time. There could well be another one even before Croatia's accession, so they could just be tagged onto that.



Irrelevant. The guarantees will be registered as an international treaty, and a change of government in a state which is a signatory to ANY international treaty does not reduce or remove that state's obligations to adhere to treaties it has signed up to.



Also wrong. The ECJ cannot strike down a decision by the Council of Europe. None of your waffling changes that basic fact.

European Council "decisions" are of less legal-standing than the Treaties themselves. If the ECJ determines this decision to be in violation of the Treaties, then it will strike it down. All EU legislation is of lower legal-standing than the Treaties themselves.

[Catalpa]

The British PM is absolutely correct. What's your point?

My point is that we have already voted on this Treaty and the answer was NO.

Why are we being asked to vote again on exactly the same Treaty as the one the People of this State rejected last year.

If changes had been made, even nominal ones, then there would be some kind of fig-leaf for the Political Establishment to hide behind...

Maybe you could loan them your Poster?

[dompool]

Learn to say 'no' to the good so you can say 'yes' to the best.”

can we afford to go another way?

[COMMIE]

The Lisbon treaety has not changed as a document. There this Labour man will not change........... I shall vote NO as before.

[Oblivion]

I shall vote NO as before.

Good on you. By pulling together, we can stop this Lisbon power-grab once and for all.

And remember, before last year's referendum, the Yes camp was often in the lead in polls, with large numbers of undecided. The undecided voters proved crucial when the moment came, in granting victory to the No camp.

This year, the Yes movement has undeniably gained ground - but there are still 20% of voters who are undecided.

I believe they will prove decisive once again.

[petervalhala]

Why do we have to wait for the next treaty? Why couldn't they attach the protocols to the Lisbon Treaty? Is it by any chance because if they were attached to the Lisbon Treaty, some of the other member states would actually have to engage democratically with their people and it would most definitely receive a resounding No from them too?

No need to as they merely state what is already in the treaty, plus there wouldnt been enough time to go through the rest of the countries before October when the new commissioners will be appointed.

[petervalhala]

You go ahead and believe the EU Parliament is transparant and accountable in as much as the Dail is if you like but dont spout that crap here in the hopes that someone might believe you.

Its fact my dear friend, all legal and informed opinion agrees with that, you can remain a member of the flat earth society if you wish, but that won't change the real world

[petervalhala]

The next EU treaty is years away, by which time more General Elections may have produced govts in EU member states that do not support the guarantees. As far as I am concerned, only the inclusion of the Protocol in an EU treaty which has been ratified by all member states will have any credibility. That is not what is on offer in Lisbon II. Until included in an EU treaty, the EU Treaties will supersede them in EU law and therefore the ECJ can strike them down.

Wrong as usual, even if the governments change, they are bound by the 1969 Vienna convention

[hiding behind a poster]

European Council "decisions" are of less legal-standing than the Treaties themselves. If the ECJ determines this decision to be in violation of the Treaties, then it will strike it down.

Why don't you talk us through that process from start to finish, FT? Then you might realise how utterly nonsensical your argument is.