Lisbon 2 - how will you vote?

[anewbeginning]

I think the only chance of a Yes vote is if Fianna Fail and Cowen do not campaign for a Yes vote.

FF are a toxic brand at the moment and everything Cowen touches politically turns to dust, Lisbon 1, the economy, etc.

If FF are prominant in the campaign, people will vote No in protest at a number of issues, that's fact!

People don't trust FF, the party of Ahern, Haughey, Burke, Flynn, Lawlor and Dunlop.

[petervalhala]

Not when the result is spat back in our faces and obnoxious, patronising twats like yourself threaten us that we'd better give the "right" answer this time... or else.

No, it isn't.

Actually 96% of our elected representatives gave us the 'right' answer, and are now doing the right thing by putting the Country's interests before party politics.

[Oblivion]

We need to be at the heart of Europe.

A standard-issue phrase spewed out so often by brainless Europhiles, it has about as much credibility as a miserable politburo official praising the "great leap forward".

[FutureTaoiseach]

Actually 96% of our elected representatives gave us the 'right' answer, and are now doing the right thing by putting the Country's interests before party politics.

Or putting the gravy-train before party-politics.
Yes - EU law has superseded national law since 1973. But what means in practice is that each time the scope of EU law is expected, the Constitution is further overridden. With Lisbon and the Charter of Fundamental Rights, that process of rendering the Irish Constitution subordinate on all areas of policy to the ECJ will become complete, and the EU will be a Federal State in all but name.

[Oblivion]

Don't lose out - Lisbon: Vote YES for economic recovery & democratic reform.

I may have been too harsh on you, petervalhala.

You do, at least, have a keen sense of humour.

[Setanta781]

I would ask the people like FT and others to explain to me what there proposed alternatives would be if the Treaty was rejected once again?

[molloyjh]

Or putting the gravy-train before party-politics.

You really do talk out of your arse don't you FT. For as much as I distrust and dislike our politicians even I know that is a pile of crap. How many EU positions do you think are available to Irish politicians. If you look at the number of them we have do you really think ALL of them are going to spend time in the EU? Do you even think there are enough positions for most of them to work there at some time or another?

Look I know you love throwing out these sound-bytes, but you do yourself no favours when these sound-bytes are so ill thought through.

[FutureTaoiseach]

You really do talk out of your arse don't you FT. For as much as I distrust and dislike our politicians even I know that is a pile of crap. How many EU positions do you think are available to Irish politicians. If you look at the number of them we have do you really think ALL of them are going to spend time in the EU? Do you even think there are enough positions for most of them to work there at some time or another?
Look I know you love throwing out these sound-bytes, but you do yourself no favours when these sound-bytes are so ill thought through.

Well when the European Parliament voted to suppress the Galvin Report on abuse of the expenses-system, and when the EU budget hasn't been signed-off on for 14 years, we are entitled to draw conclusions. There are scores of offices our elite get appointed to, ranging from the European Economic and Social Council, to the Commission, to the ECJ, to the Court of Auditors themselves to the EIB to Europol, to Eurojust etc. and after Lisbon to the President of the European Council too.

I would ask the people like FT and others to explain to me what there proposed alternatives would be if the Treaty was rejected once again?

Continue on the basis of the Nice Treaty. The EU does need democratic-reforms but Lisbon makes the EU less democratic.

[Edo]

Wow. I am really surprised you are so candid with your views Edo. You were very much on the Yes side in Lisbon 1, one of the few people going door to door IIRC.

Well KN - I am in a horrible dilemma - basically because I have no objection in principle to the Lisbon Treaty - more I just have a problem with the way it is being rerun past the Irish Electorate again.

I have thought long and hard about this over the last week and have read widely and took in as many opinons as possible - most enlightening was last night as I attended one of the "victory" tour evenings in a local pub that gets nearly all people in the townsland in at some stage- that every successful rural local election candidate has to do across the length and breath of our district in the aftermath of a successful campaign to "thank" the voters for their support, take notes on who needs what done in the locality etc etc - welcome to local democracy! - I was the campaign manager and agent for my candidate so I have to go these gigs too -

anyway - I have been doing a little unofficial research into reactions to Lisbon and compared to last year - the tide definitely has turned in favour - no way around this - everything comes down to how people feel economically - and in a rural area such as this - the fact that employment is retreating back to the agricultural strongholds of the pre-boom era and that agriculture and agri-related business are still going strong, Doha is retreating into the past and CAP is still paying out and the EU grants are still available as Irish Government funding dries up - the general consensus seems to be that Lisbon really isn't such a big deal and we need as many friends as we can get and not to piss off those we already have. Some of the FG crew have issues with Lisbon -but primarily in the domestic context and that FF might try and claim electoral advantage out of it - that said - that opinion is waning and its back to country before party , which is a particular FG trait it has to be said. If Cowen shows a bit of cop-on and agrees to leave domestic politics aside for the general good and runs a real united campaign with FG and Labour - well that will be enough for most of the doorsteppers and canvassers and they will fall into line - if he, Kenny and Gilmore shows even more imagination and take off the domestic political jerseys and all of them don the green jersey together - well then the show is over - I wrote to Kenny tonight and told him to push Cowen and Gilmore for this and if we get it - I'll leave my blueshirt in the closet and come out and campaign for a Yes.

I know I have quibbles about the fact that its been run again so soon and we should have a GE - on the other hand I've been involved in politics long enough to know that you take what you can get - compromise is the only way - if you are a purist - dont get involved in political life - you are in for a life of interminable disappointment.

Lisbon wont change things dramatically one way or another - it will more than anything cement the power of the council of ministers and the national governments for the forseeable future - as a centrist moderate who is not at all in favour of a full on Federal USE, but has recognised the fact that in coming to common agreements in relation to international matters such as trade, crime,R&D and the environment - Ireland, thru the EU, gets a much bigger voice that is listened to and taken seriously because we are prepared to put our shoulder to the wheel , as opposed to making strident flowery speeches that will get the great applause in the UN and in the Village magazine, but are ultimately worthless in the most irrelevant of global talking shops.

I know it doesn't sound great for a purist point of view, but Im not a university professor , just a temporarily unemployed arts grad with 15 years international business managment experience and who is practised in the art of getting the best deal possible given the cards I get to play with and at the moment will be chasing the executive of the local council to get traffic signs erected and local sewage schemes finished - its normally better to be inside the tent pissing out , rather than outside the tent pissing in (unless you happen to have a large military, preferably nuclear armed , which tends to get peoples attention - we have chosen not to pursue that line - but whoever came up with the line - "the pen is mighter than the sword" was definitely not talking about the real-politik of the international relations and international business - its all about who has the bigger pockets and machinery) - So I guess I'll be holding my nose about the lack of local democracy and voting Yes for the good of the country - I'll get my payback on national and local democracy in the forthcoming GE.

Best of luck to the NO Lads who invited me to their forum- but you'll really have to have sit-down and think about this - the atmosphere you will be competing in has changed 180 degrees since last June - people go to circuses when they have the money and are feeling secure - circuses close down or move on to more comfortable economic climbs when times are tougher - Mckenna,Higgins, SF and Coir and the rest of the circus got a hearing cos folks were feeling secure financially and the treaty didn't appear to be any big deal and of course it could be renegotiated so we could afford to indulge - now that the arse has fallen out of our financial world and the ECB are guaranteeing and will be guaranteeing for the forseeable future our national IOUs - commonly known as Government bonds, that agriculture and CAP are the only ones who are pumping money into our rural economy - people are actually listening quite intently to the Yes side - whereas they really didnt want to know last year.

Its the economy stupid - it was last year and it will be this year - for as all seasoned campaigners know - its always the economy - the worse people are feeling financially - the more they screen out everything else - and vice versa.

As regards Defense,taxation,abortion,health etc etc - you will find a far less receptive audience to these matters and the Yes campaign will deal with them very effectively I would say this time around.

So its the economy - you will have to find some valid and plausible reasons how Lisbon will massively and in the short-term obliterate their incomes and employment here - truth is Lisbon is totally economically neutral - all the No and Yes arguments are totally bogus - and you will need to find some plausible spokesperson to promote this economic arguement - Pat McKenna,Joe Higgins and SF? - yeah you will get the underclass/working class vote - but the working class don't decide elections - the middle class do and they don't vote for SF and Joe Higgins when they are thinking economically.

Anyway thats my two cents and my contribution to the your forum - I won't contribute further as I dont want to cramp your style.

Best of luck - but I think you're going to be as frustrated and pissed off at the Irish Electorate this October as I was last June!

[McDave]

The reason we have to have a referendum is because our constitution says we do, it has nothing to do with people's understanding or lack thereof.

I appreciate that, and on balance I prefer it to be that way.

However, if we had a Dail that really debated issues and had a strong track record of legislating, I'd be inclined to show it more respect and defer to it on certain issues. How this might relate to Lisbon is that the Dail might have ratified most of that treaty and left a short list of contentious items to a more easily-explained referendum. It's all very much water under the bridge at this stage, but our Dail's predeliction for "contracting out" difficult issues to the people (original abortion amendment, travel for abortion) and the courts (pub and taxi licensing) means it's a very hands-off body which doesn't make it very fit-for-purpose for political decision-making and opinion-forming on controversial issues. In short, it's not very trusted.