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About LinkBacksIt's the result of debasing democracy.Originally Posted by McDave
Yes
No
It's the result of debasing democracy.
A poster of some consequence...
That conclusion goes against the whole history of EU referenda since 1987. A solid block of 500,000 no voters has always turned out. And remember, unemployment was 16-7% in 1987/92.
I thought Christian Pauls (retiring German ambassador to Ireland) had some interesting things to say on Marion Finucane yesterday about the disrespectful attitude in some Irish quarters to the fact that parliament and not the people ratified Lisbon in Germany, i.e. the contention that it's not democratic not to have a referendum.
As for ourselves, while it's entirely our prerogative to run referenda or not, maybe if we had a higher quality parliament here, we mightn't need to have serial referenda on issues most people profess not to understand.
As for debasement, if the Irish people truly feared for democracy, then I reckon they'd take the opportunity to vote down Lisbon again on a point of principle. IMO, most people see a second referendum as a pragmatic step to readdress a matter not properly discussed in the first instance. Of course it's galling for the No camps, having already fought the good fight. But the people are sovereign here, and if they vote Yes to Lisbon 2, that will be a democratic outcome fully conforming to the conditions of our constitution.
Comparisons with rigged referenda under the Nazis is a lame excuse for not consulting the German people with referenda done by the book.
That's one of the things people hate - the implication that the Irish people are thick. We are not. The referendum provision was put there in 1937 for very good reason. The people set the parameters in which the political-class is free to act, while the politicians themselves act within that constitutional-space. And long may it continue. It's that kind of attitude that causes critics of Brussels to accuse it of a democratic-deficit. The thesis that the broad mass of people have to be kept in check by an elite is a 19th century one, harking back to the days when the vote was confined to "men of property" rather than what Edmund Burke called "thw swinish multitude". Such class-prejudice must not be allowed to contaminate our democracy as it did in the past. a couple of hundred politicians are easier to bribe than millions of people. The Act of Union shows what happens when you get politicians unlimited freedom in which to act. We must keep our politicians on a tight leash. The Tribunals underline that fact. Give them an inch and they will take a mile.As for ourselves, while it's entirely our prerogative to run referenda or not, maybe if we had a higher quality parliament here, we mightn't need to have serial referenda on issues most people profess not to understand.
My contention is that the "No" vote will struggle to get to 40%. "No"s only exceeded 40% for Nice 1 and Lisbon 1.
The Nice 2 "No" was 37% on a 49.5% turnout. I'd envisage something similar for Lisbon 2. The "whole history of referenda since 1987" bears me out on this.
Amendments to the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not the whole history. The no vote was 860,000 in 2008. The whole history since 1987 is that the no vote has always been at least approx 500,000. That indicates the no vote is more likely to turn out, as indeed did the Nice I/II experience. One thing we can say is different from the "whole history" is that never before has a treaty 95% identical to one rejected in 2 other member states and then ratified there through parliament been presented twice to an Irish electorate, undermining its legitimacy.
On radio shows like Saturday View, the Right Hook, Lunchtime etc., the presenters often say that the majority of their callers are on the no side. That, to me, reflects a continuation of the experience of past EU referenda that the no side feel most strongly on the transfer of sovereignty to Brussels, and will turn out in force.
Last edited by FutureTaoiseach; 21st June 2009 at 08:23 PM.
No he did not
Do you want to defy pigeon holes and at the
same time avoid designer synicism Laugh with
rage!
If not 3:1, Ganley, Mary Lou and Sinnott have all been defeated.
The reason we have to have a referendum is because our constitution says we do, it has nothing to do with people's understanding or lack thereof.
The truthiness will set you free! - Stephen Colbert.
The same block would also vote that the Earth was flat.
