What happenend to the 2 tier europe?

[eurosceptic]

Vincenzo brown took liz mcmanus to task last night when she claimed the no side told lies (i accept some lies were told and there was some zany stuff). Vincenzo pointed out that the yes side repeatedly claimed that a no vote would result in a two tier europe with us in the "lower" tier. We voted no and a year later there is still no sign of this mythical two-tier europe. So will the yesmen now admit it was alie all along?

[JamieD]

Vincenzo brown took liz mcmanus to task last night when she claimed the no side told lies (i accept some lies were told and there was some zany stuff). Vincenzo pointed out that the yes side repeatedly claimed that a no vote would result in a two tier europe with us in the "lower" tier. We voted no and a year later there is still no sign of this mythical two-tier europe. So will the yesmen now admit it was alie all along?

No, it's still a possibility that a two tier Europe would emerge. You do remember after the referendum that EU leaders immediately said that Lisbon wasn't dead and that some form of arrangement could be made with Ireland? The Irish government opted for second referendum with guarantees so that closed the two-tier Europe debate.

[eurosceptic]

Such a special arrangement could only happen with our consent. The yes side painted it as happening without our consent.

[JamieD]

Such a special arrangement could only happen with our consent. The yes side painted it as happening without our consent.

Just an observation but every time I talk about what I saw as incredible propaganda from opponents of the Lisbon Treaty, it is always pointed out to me that Libertas didn't represent the entire opposition, that Sinn Fein didn't represent the entire opposition, that COIR didn't represent the entire opposition and so on. Yet, I always point out that I didn't say that they did, I'm not referring to opposition as a Hive mind or single-entity incapable of independent thought - but the same courtesy is rarely reserved for supporters of the Lisbon Treaty. "Yesmen" and other stupid titles are meant to lump people together, and the title itself is meant to be derogative (tailored by Irish history too), to identify a certain group of people that its OK to label.

As for your point, my impression always was that the Irish Government and I assume most of the Irish people would not object to the other EU states moving ahead if it could be made legally possible. I know the usual argument is that "no other state put it to a public vote", but the same applies that it's not OK for Ireland's voters to make a decision for 26 other states that have already done so (or intend to), legally and within the power of their elected governments. Remember we voted on altering our constitution, not on whether Lisbon Treaty should go ahead across the whole of Europe (technically we didn't even vote whether it should go ahead in Ireland, but blocking the constitutional amendments makes it impossible).

[Arcadius]

...
As for your point, my impression always was that the Irish Government and I assume most of the Irish people would not object to the other EU states moving ahead if it could be made legally possible.
...

I believe it is legally possible.
Under Crotty I don't think it even requires a referendum.

Edit: Of course, it'd be incredibly messy.

[molloyjh]

I wouldn't pay a blind bit of attention to those eejits in either Government or opposition. All of them have proven to be talking out of their holes about most things, not just Europe. While it is certainly possible that a two-tier Europe could have emerged it was always highly unlikely. Imagine how that would look to the other member states? Something like that could spell the end of the EU project as it currently stands if it were to happen.

They really do the Yes campaign no favours that's for sure!

[FutureTaoiseach]

There has been a multi-tier Europe since 1993 when Denmark received optouts from the euro, judicial-cooperation, European citizenship and the Common Foreign and Security Policy. Since then, Ireland and the UK have remained outside of the Schengen Agreement (abolishing internal border-controls) while Ireland has an optin on an ad hoc basis on common policies in the area of Justice and Home Affairs. So when the elite warn of a "two-speed/tier Europe", they are warning of something that has been there for 16 years.

[ActuallyYourWrong]

There has been a multi-tier Europe since 1993 when Denmark received optouts from the euro, judicial-cooperation, European citizenship and the Common Foreign and Security Policy. Since then, Ireland and the UK have remained outside of the Schengen Agreement (abolishing internal border-controls) while Ireland has an optin on an ad hoc basis on common policies in the area of Justice and Home Affairs. So when the elite warn of a "two-speed/tier Europe", they are warning of something that has been there for 16 years.

That's a great point FT.

So true.

[advertismo]

There has been a multi-tier Europe since 1993 when Denmark received optouts from the euro, judicial-cooperation, European citizenship and the Common Foreign and Security Policy. Since then, Ireland and the UK have remained outside of the Schengen Agreement (abolishing internal border-controls) while Ireland has an optin on an ad hoc basis on common policies in the area of Justice and Home Affairs. So when the elite warn of a "two-speed/tier Europe", they are warning of something that has been there for 16 years.

Love the new badge (but I hope, to be fair, the reverse side reads 'EU-SA')

[DeGaulle 2.0]

Love the new badge (but I hope, to be fair, the reverse side reads 'EU-SA')

When you see that badge, you know you needn't bother reading the post.