I can't see if there is a thread already, but here are the "Guarantees" sought from other Member States/Government of the EU by the Irish Government, as published today.
http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2009...tees/index.pdf
Please free to merge if a thread already exists.
<Mod> This thread has been merged with "Lisbon II guarantees revealed: are they enough?" </Mod>
Last edited by stringjack; 16th June 2009 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Merged thread.
1- This document makes no mention of a future protocol, so we are only getting a council decision which cannot contradict the treaty text. (This committment may be in another document so i will wait on this)
2- Where is the committment re the commission? (This committment may be in another document so i will wait on this)
3- Life, Family and Education. I cant fully answear until i know if this is a future protocol or a declaration. It is better than the current abortion protocol but still not enough, especially as we will have to wait for godot for a future protocol. Family and education is a red herring in my view. I cant remember the no side kicking up a fuss on family and education.
4- Taxation: Does not in any way remove the threat of enhanced cooperation and the Bersani report on a CCCTB.
5- Security and Defence.
First paragraph is waffle.
Second paragraph retains the fudge of "specific charachter of defence policy". Stuff on "strengthening international security is rumsfeldesque.
Third paragraph is a fudge. How is neutrality defined.
Fourth paragraph is duplication. It also does not give us the option of no assistance.
Fifth paragraph is duplication.
Sixth paragraph is afudge.
Seventh paragraph is duplication.
Eighth paragraph a red herring plus permanent structured co-operation is as good as an army
Ninth paragraph a clever fudge that still ensures we progressively improve our capability
Tenth paragraph is duplication.
6- Declaration has no legal substance but dressed up in language to imply that it does. Mere duplication of whats already there. Doesnt address the issues of workers rights or public services. Doesnt add anything new to neutrality.
In short a con-job!!!
So far so bad, I'm inclined to agree with you.Originally Posted by eurosceptic
I declare I'm never going to drink a pint again. Who will trust my declaration!
And as usual we get the traditional half-baked, inaccurate, superficial and twisted misrepresentation that Eurosceptic is famed for.
Plus ca change.
Is yours enforceable in law?
These ones are.
That's the big difference. A declaration in international treaty law is a specific legal concept enforceable through judicial review.
Who told you that Tommy?
'Personally, I find the notion of changing our constitution in exchange for a loan absolutely disgusting'. - Tin Foil Hat
Very true, though not as powerfully judiciable as if they were included in a Treaty proper.
These are only the matters needing a guarantee, as far as the Irish Government is concerned.
The Heads of State meeting will decide as to how they are actually "Guaranteed". The betting at the moment is in one of the two treaties coming directly from the ratification of Lisbon.
Very difficult to get excited about this. I wish the Banks Guarantee was of similarly flimsy legal standing.
Funny how the Fax header fingering the Estonian Delegation as the source has been trimmed from the version on the RTÉ site
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0615/lisbon.pdf
'Personally, I find the notion of changing our constitution in exchange for a loan absolutely disgusting'. - Tin Foil Hat
You're first to the punch alright - at least in the Lisbon forum!
My reaction is that it's all a pretty sad affair. I can't see anything in the guarantees that alters the facts of the Lisbon treaty. If anything, all it does is list the items the government couldn't get across to the Irish people in it's lazy, lazy campaign. What are we asking other Europeans to do for us?
Guarantee our family values? Why? Our protections are in our own constitution. EU law primary or secondary law doesn't have anything to say on whether we have abortion or not in our own jurisdiction. Do we really have so little confidence that we can't set the parameters for our own education policy?
Taxation? There is a unanimity clause in the existing treaties which gives us a veto. More to the point. This veto stops legislation ever getting on the table at all.
Neutrality? Oh please! Ireland's "traditional policy of military neutrality".* Please remind me again, is this policy Kafkaesque, Machiavellian or Fossettian**?
Workers rights? Prior to Lisbon, organised labour, Joe Higgins and the Labour party were campaigning for tighter rules to protect part-time workers and those working under the "flags of convenience" of their employers. What did the Irish govt do? Nothing. What on earth are FF doing now going whining to Europe, when it is within our own gift to right so many wrongs.
I'm of the view that we shouldn't really be looking for these guarantees at all (http://www.politics.ie/lisbon-treaty...uarantees.html - sorry about ad, but it's a dead thread anyway). They are yet another hypocritical expedient by a clapped out govt that isn't either prepared to or capable of doing any heavy lifting. It really makes one despair about setting this country to rights.
_____
* Best pronounced in Oul' Mr Brennan or Biddy Tunney accent.
** Ahem: Fossetts Circus.....book your tickets now!!!!
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