More scaremongering from IBEC

[FutureTaoiseach]

No, you've contradicted yourself by trying to pretend that Spain's Yes vote caused their unemployment to rise.

Clearly if Ireland votes No again it will have a serious effect on both current and future employment. Just look at the bad headlines in the international media last time and multiply that by ten.

We need to maintain and increase FDI, we need to recognise that 95% of our farm exports go to Europe, we need to recognise that Ireland has to be seen being at the heart of Europe.

And those exports will continue after a second no vote. Indeed the govt has claimed that Irish exports have not been hit as hard as those of other EU member states. This is not a referendum on EU membership, despite scaremongering from the elites, some of whom may be in line for patronage, a cushy office and 6-figure expenses in Brussels. A no vote is a vote for the constitutional status-quo, and repeating the scaremongering used unsuccessfully to bully the Dutch and French peoples into voting yes with sentimentality about being 'at the heart of Europe' does not change that fact. The heart of Europe isn't the elites. It is the people, who have either had their opinions flouted (France, Holland and Ireland) or not even solicited (the rest). The peoples are on our side. The elites are the ones who are isolated from public opinion on this issue. Traditionally, EU treaties are ratified by the unanimous consent of all member states. The Euro elections show - notably in the UK - that such unanimity does not exist, and that consequently, the spirit of unanimity is not being respected, and nations are having sovereignty stolen from them in clear violation of the right to self-determination contained in Chapter 1 of the UN Charter. The elites are not Europe.

[petervalhala]

Peter thats alarmist waffle. A no vote is a vote for the staus quo. Future's point is not that spains yes caused unemployment to double but to debunk the notion that voting yes will make things better. FDI relies only on our legal entitlements within the common market which wont change with a no vote.

Incorrect, a no vote stops the other 26 member states from moving forward, a no vote sends a message that we have rejected the EU, such a message clearly damages our abilility to attract FDI.

Apart from that, a Yes vote for Lisbon will result in a more democratic EU.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Incorrect, a no vote stops the other 26 members from moving forward, a no vote sends a message that we have rejected the EU, such a message clearly damages our abilility to attract FDI.

Apart from that, a Yes vote for Lisbon will result in a more democratic EU.

A no vote is a vote for the status-quo. It is the elite who we are rejecting. They have no right to claim to constitute "Europe". Europe is the people of Europe - not just the elites and their gravy-train. I reject the elites and their gravy-train. A rejection of Lisbon is a vote for a more democratic Europe. A vote for Lisbon is a vote to deepen the democratic-deficit and centralise all remaining power in the hands of the bureaucrats in Brussels whom the Irish people do not elect for the most part. It would also be undemocratic in that Lisbon does not respect the no votes of the French and Dutch peoples in their referenda, nor the rights of the remaining citizens of the EU to referenda on its contents.

And the 26-state argument is factually incorrect. It is the Czech President who is preventing the Czech republic "moving forward" with ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by withholding its signature. It is the Polish President who is preventing Poland "moving forward" with ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. It is the German President who, by refusing to sign Lisbon in advance of a ruling by the Constitutional Court, is preventing Germany "moving forward" with ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. So in factual terms, you are wrong there, too. I know Dick Roche would love to be in a position to present the Irish people with the dreaded 27-1 scenario, but it is a nonexist one.

[petervalhala]

And those exports will continue after a second no vote. Indeed the govt has claimed that Irish exports have not been hit as hard as those of other EU member states. This is not a referendum on EU membership, despite scaremongering from the elites, some of whom may be in line for patronage, a cushy office and 6-figure expenses in Brussels. A no vote is a vote for the constitutional status-quo, and repeating the scaremongering used unsuccessfully to bully the Dutch and French peoples into voting yes with sentimentality about being 'at the heart of Europe' does not change that fact. The heart of Europe isn't the elites. It is the people, who have either had their opinions flouted (France, Holland and Ireland) or not even solicited (the rest). The peoples are on our side. The elites are the ones who are isolated from public opinion on this issue. Traditionally, EU treaties are ratified by the unanimous consent of all member states. The Euro elections show - notably in the UK - that such unanimity does not exist, and that consequently, the spirit of unanimity is not being respected, and nations are having sovereignty stolen from them in clear violation of the right to self-determination contained in Chapter 1 of the UN Charter. The elites are not Europe.

The only 'elite' who was scaremongering was the unelected, unaccountable, secretly funded Libertas leader Declan Ganley.

Whilst every political party, bar the Shinners, along with every pro business group, as well as most unions support Lisbon.

France and Holland ratified Lisbon according to their rules, you seem to want to interfere with their internal political systems.

The Irish decision was listened to, and the concerns of the people will be addressed by the guarantees to be annouced later this week.

All the UK election showed was that right wing, racist candidates such as the BNP can get elected due to the unpopularity of their government, in an atmosphere virtually totally devoid any actual EU issues.

MEPs are elected by the people of Europe, Commissioners are appointed by the elected Governments of Europe, Councils of Ministers are composed of people elected by the people of Europe to their respective parliments. No elites, just people's representives.

Your repeated overuse of the word 'elite' is getting as boring and as predictable as Joe Higgins. Perhaps its time to come clean and admit you are Joe?

[FutureTaoiseach]

The only 'elite' who was scaremongering was the unelected, unaccountable, secretly funded Libertas leader Declan Ganley.

Whilst every political party, bar the Shinners, along with every pro business group, as well as most unions support Lisbon.

France and Holland ratified Lisbon according to their rules, you seem to want to interfere with their internal political systems.

The Irish decision was listened to, and the concerns of the people will be addressed by the guarantees to be annouced later this week.

All the UK election showed was that right wing, racist candidates such as the BNP can get elected due to the unpopularity of their government, in an atmosphere virtually totally devoid any actual EU issues.

MEPs are elected by the people of Europe, Commissioners are appointed by the elected Governments of Europe, Councils of Ministers are composed of people elected by the people of Europe to their respective parliments. No elites, just people's representives.

Your repeated overuse of the word 'elite' is getting as boring and as predictable as Joe Higgins. Perhaps its time to come clean and admit you are Joe?

Direct democracy has more legitimacy than representative democracy when the two conflict in exercises of democracy governing the same issue, in this case Lisbon/EU Constitution. We must not allow ourselves to be inducted into a conspiracy to deny the French and Dutch peoples their right to self-determination - a right enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations. We would not accept an attempt by the political-elite to impose Lisbon without consulting us in a referendum. In that context, our values of respect for democracy should not permit us to accept doing to others what we would not accept being done to us. The Irish concerns have not been listened to. The only manner in which they can be credibly addressed is via changes to the text of the Lisbon Treaty. Nothing else will suffice. The refusal of the elites to accept this represents bad faith on their part. Once Lisbon goes through (God forbid) we will be powerless to hold the political-class to their promises. Indeed even the slavishly Europhile Irish Times admits that other member states such as the UK are resisting the enshrinement of the assurances into an EU treaty. Why is that?

You say the political-elite are elected, but so was Hitler. The collaborationist regime of Vichy France was established by the elected National Assembly. Being elected doesn't give you a license to surrender your country's sovereignty without consulting them. It is true that the French and Dutch constitutions allow for ratification of treaties without referendum. But the horse has already bolted on this question. The fact is that referenda have been held on this matter with respect to the EU Constitution. In a shocking display of contempt for democracy, the elite returned with the Lisbon Treaty, which Cowen and Bertie admit is 95% the same as the rejected EU Constitution. We should not confuse moral issues with constitutional issues. Morally, it would be appalling to foist on the peoples of France and Holland, a surrender of sovereignty those 2 nations voted against. Is it any wonder then that anti-EU parties are growing in support in most EU states. It reflects disillusionment with the ruling elites and their determination to foist a European Superstate on the peoples of Europe with or without their consent. If we believe in a democratic-Europe, we must reject the Lisbon Treaty. In doing so, we will force the elites to listen to the people of Europe and return to the drawing board in a manner that respects the concerns that have caused us, the French and the Dutch to reject this blueprint for an undemocratic Europe, ruled by unelected elites with weak democratic institutions to provide a veneer of legitimacy.

No I am not Joe Higgins. Would have thought my avatar would have erased such suspicions.

[turdsl]

Nothing very democratic about the EU, within an hour of the result we were told we would have to vote again, now the majority of the Irish people must apologise for been stupid and say sorry for all the hardship we have caused and thanks for the money you sent us,Now we will change our minds and vote yes this time because our politicians tell us its the right thing to do and of coarse they know best, sorry again.

[Setanta781]

Although It's wrong that the referendum is being put to us again I think we need to take a step backwards and look at this treaty, If we are to falter on our Debt we will be bailed out by Germany ,because unfortunately the way Fianna Fail have built the country we need the E.U., so in theory we can't turn around and dig our heels in when the E.U. asks us to do something.

I wish we could reject it and still be alright as a nation but I would have to agree with Peter at a time like this we need to be at the heart of Europe to get us out of this hole.

The E.U is not democratic, we all know that but what is the alternative right wing parties like the B.N.P and the conservatives having the balance of power? I don't think any of us would want that.

We need E.U more then they need us and I think we all need to recognize that.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Although It's wrong that the referendum is being put to us again I think we need to take a step backwards and look at this treaty, If we are to falter on our Debt we will be bailed out by Germany ,because unfortunately the way Fianna Fail have built the country we need the E.U., so in theory we can't turn around and dig our heels in when the E.U. asks us to do something.

I wish we could reject it and still be alright as a nation but I would have to agree with Peter at a time like this we need to be at the heart of Europe to get us out of this hole.

I disagree with you. Sweden voted no to the euro but the ECB last week agreed to provide its financial-institutions with liquidity (according to FFer on The Late Debate Radio 1 some night back). We are in the eurozone, and the Franco-German axis won't allow any member state's financial-systems to go down. Otherwise, the markets would draw the conclusion that the euro was not a viable currency because the political-will didn't exist to support it. In Iceland, the collapse of the national currency resulted from the inability of the Central Bank to bail out the 3 largest banks. But as members of EMU, we are entitled to liquidity from the ECB regardless, and that will continue irrespective of a no vote. We must stand our ground.