How can Lisbon II be defeated.

[steady on now]

The Anglophobic card is outdated in the post-Troubles context. It's also ironic coming from an elite that talks constantly about 'uniting Europe' and being 'at the heart of Europe'. You're side is not above a level of xenophobia itself, yet see fit to lecture the no campaign on it. The hypocrisy is incredible.

It is honest and right to point out that we as a nation have a choice and that is to continue in our constructive engagement with the other nations of the EU or to follow an increasingly eurosceptic UK.

A NO vote will require Ireland to re-negotiate its' relationship with the EU, this will coincide with a newly elected europsceptic and anti-Lisbon Tory government in the UK intent on re-negotiating its own relationship with the EU.
Ireland will be forced into the UK camp as most nations in the EU will still see the need for the reforms envisioned in Lisbon and we will certainly not be able to join this group.

This is very important. Many are happy to say that they are Pro-EU but anti-Lisbon or Pro-European but anti-Lisbon, but this differentiation will not be open to us. This is not about being anglophobic or not this is about seeing the bigger picture and realizing that a NO vote will not be business as usual, we will decide what side of an approaching schism we are on.

[hiding behind a poster]

The Protocol doesn't even mention abortion. It mentions Article 40.3.3., which in turn, doesn't mention the word "abortion". On the contrary, Article 40.3.3. mentions the 'right to life of the unborn'. The "unborn" has never been properly defined in Irish law, openly the way for the ECJ to define it for us, with all that implies for our abortion laws. In particular, the ECJ could refer to the X-Case as evidence that legalising abortion would not necessarily violate Article 40.3.3. or the Protocol. The Charter's references to the right to privacy mirror those of the US Constitution that led to the Roe v Wade judgement imposing legalised abortion across that country. You then have to look at the provisions of the Referendum act 2008 which allow the govt to surrender the Justice and Home Affairs veto without a referendum, provided the Oireachtas agrees. Add that to the expansion of QMV into justice and home affairs, and you have a Superstate in all but name. Brian Lenihan announced last year that the govt would "review" out JHA optout within 3 years. QMV for JHA could mean abortion being imposed on Ireland.

No it couldn't. Complete pack of lies, from start to finish. And you know it. There is no abortion in Ireland because of the Irish Supreme Court's interpretation of Article 40.3.3 - no-one else's, because no-one else is entitled to interpret that article. And the fact remains that NOTHING from the EU, as made explicitly clear from the Maastricht Protocol, can affect the application in Ireland of Article 40.3.3. So no matter what legislation came from the EU (even if any kind of abortion legislation did come from the EU, which it can't), it would simply be struck down by the Supreme Court if its enactment affected the right to life of the unborn. Whether the word "abortion" is even mentioned is irrelevant. It can be called The Hillbillies, Whisky and Druids Bill, for that that matters - what's relevant is the content - and if OUR Supreme Court decides that that Bill goes against ITS OWN interpretation of Article 40.3.3, then such a Bill would be unconstitutional in Ireland. And the EU accepts that, as is made clear in the Protocol. The ONLY way any of this can change is if the Irish people vote by referendum to amend or remove Article 40.3.3.

You know this to be true, FutureTaoiseach, and none of your lies change those facts. You should be renamed PresentLiar - particularly given your lie about the ECJ potentially deciding to define the unborn for us. Because you know full well that the ECJ has ZERO authority to define ANYTHING in the Irish Constitution. The ECJ ONLY has authority to adjudicate on whether EU law (NOT IRISH LAW!!) is being uniformly interpreted in the 27 member states, if a case is brought to it.

There really should be some kind of card system on this site to censure, and eventually ban, those who continue to spout blatant lies. People like you, in other words.

[Ah Well]

It is honest and right to point out that we as a nation have a choice and that is to continue in our constructive engagement with the other nations of the EU or to follow an increasingly eurosceptic UK.

A NO vote will require Ireland to re-negotiate its' relationship with the EU, this will coincide with a newly elected europsceptic and anti-Lisbon Tory government in the UK intent on re-negotiating its own relationship with the EU.
Ireland will be forced into the UK camp as most nations in the EU will still see the need for the reforms envisioned in Lisbon and we will certainly not be able to join this group.

This is very important. Many are happy to say that they are Pro-EU but anti-Lisbon or Pro-European but anti-Lisbon, but this differentiation will not be open to us. This is not about being anglophobic or not this is about seeing the bigger picture and realizing that a NO vote will not be business as usual, we will decide what side of an approaching schism we are on.

This brings up an interesting aside .. that being those nations who are what I would term Continentals and those who are non Continental EU ....

Obviously the majority of the present EU is Continental and there are also parts which are not like Ireland, the UK, Malta, 1/2 of Cyprus, etc....

I distinctly remember shortly after the No Vote in 2008 in Ireland and the soundings of shock, horror, etc from Mainland EU, reading online that the UK would not allow Ireland to be scapegoated for having decided thus (and that was not from the Tories this was from the Gov in charge ... Labour)

Your post may bear some truths ... in the sense of we in Ireland are to an extent dissimilar from the Continentals ... wherever in that thinking one includes those in the UK is up to each poster's interpretation

And .... imagine being a continental pro-Lisbon type just after the No Vote was announced ... Sarkozy for example ...

Dress it up as you wish as no doubt the pro Lisbon types here will ... but I'm pretty sure there were a lot a Continentals thinking and fuming about a small Island to the extreme West of the EU which had botched up a Plan

Long live this small Island on the western extremity of Europe ... being the only State in 27 where its people were afforded the choice by Referendum to make a decision in 2008 and they did ... and this was not accepted ... and here we go again

[hiding behind a poster]

Future has made some excellent points there and i will have to echo them.
Quick history lesson, when the fine print of the protocol was being drafted we were still in a pre-X-case world where article 40.3.3. offered comprehensive protection on the right to life. So it made sense to carbon copy article 40.3.3 into the treaties as this would ensure that comprehensive protection was insulated from EU interference.
Problem is things didnt quite pan out that way. The X-case judgement and others have ruled that article 40.3.3 is far from comprehensive and highly vague as to the meaning of "unborn child", "equal right to life" and "as far as is reasonably practical". So future's point that the ecj could determine that forcing us to legalise abortion is not necessarily in conflict with article 40.3.3 holds water. Post-Lisbon it will be within the competence of the court to make such a ruling as matters of fundamental rights will for the first time come under its scope. With the right to privacy, medical treatment, to access services, to provide services and so in the charter we may well be exposed.
His point on a QMV vote on justice and home affairs is also pertinent, the language of the protocol is designed to stop an ecj ruling on abortion affecting us not to stop an EU directive being implemented. With the concession of our veto we may well be exposed.
The bullyboy approach of the yesmen on this website and beyond on this subject only serves to convince me that they know they are on a sticky wicket.

No, his points are all wrong. The fact remains that the interpretation, amendment, removal or otherwise of Article 40.3.3 remains 100% within the power of the Irish people ONLY. And the fact also remains that ANY EU legislation, or ANY ruling from the ECJ on ANY issue, whether directly related to abortion provision or not, is explicitly covered under the Maastricht Protocol. Therefore it falls to the Irish Supreme Court to determine whether ANY EU legislation conflicts with its own interpretation or Article 40.3.3 - and if it views any such item of EU law as being in conflict with ITS OWN interpretation of 40.3.3, it strikes that legislation down. Simple as that.

Yours and PresentLiar's "argument" wouldn't even make it into the car park of the Supreme Court. It really is that threadbare.

[hiding behind a poster]

Ah, it's not as simple as that now.
A European human rights charter ( EU Charter of Fundamental Rights ) would be interpreted liberally by the European Court of Justice to grant abortion rights on demand. Not only that but the treaty gives the EU Court of Justice the power to rule over our Supreme Court. The Lisbon Treaty gives the EU way too much power over our constitution and the Maastricht Protocol isn't worth the piece of paper it's written on against Lisbon.

Also, using language like that and the bullying tactics of a lot of the Yes side is precisely the reason why some people voted No in the first place.

You might call this "bullying", but it isn't. Its a simple statement of fact, so don't take offence - but you haven't a bull's notion what you're talking about. The European Court of Justice does NOT gain the power to rule over our Supreme Court. End. Of. Story.

[west'sawake]

I reckon only about 5% of the posts here have been helpful. Almanac probably gave me the best advice, that we should not indvertently reveal our hand, though he need not have worried. I'm off to bed now disappointed but knowing that tomorrow begins a new day, and hope. Thanks to those few who stuck to that which the thread title requested.

May God give all here on p.ie great spiritual and temporal blessings.

[Ah Well]

I reckon only about 5% of the posts here have been helpful. Almanac probably gave me the best advice, that we should not indvertently reveal our hand, though he need not have worried, I off to bed now disappointed but knwoing that tomorrow begins a new day, and hope. Thanks to those few who stuck to that which the thread title requested.

May God give you all great spiritual and temporal blessings.

1. I am as anti Lisbon as one gets

2. I would not be overly upset about revealing one's hand as regardless of what unscrupulous/spin Pro Lisbon types might do with it if "to hand" presumably if it rings true and the electorate are capable of deciding for themselves (which I think they are) ... then it should not matter

3. All of us in the No Camp do not think alike - what you are looking for or hope may not be the same as me, or the next poster, or the fella living 4 doors down, tho we all may have a connection ie No to Lisbon

4. I'll pass on the Religious Blessings - I draw my own spiritual succor - tho it's as far removed from "religion" as one could prob get

[hiding behind a poster]

I reckon only about 5% of the posts here have been helpful. Almanac probably gave me the best advice, that we should not indvertently reveal our hand, though he need not have worried. I'm off to bed now disappointed but knowing that tomorrow begins a new day, and hope. Thanks to those few who stuck to that which the thread title requested.

Sorry to hear that people pointing out the glaring factual errors and blatant lies from other No posters has upset you, West'sAwake.

[Ah Well]

Sorry to hear that people pointing out the glaring factual errors and blatant lies from other No posters has upset you, West'sAwake.

Don't be all encompassing HBAP .... the No Camp is awake just like de'Whest

[Adrian Wainer]

It is honest and right to point out that we as a nation have a choice and that is to continue in our constructive engagement with the other nations of the EU or to follow an increasingly eurosceptic UK.

A NO vote will require Ireland to re-negotiate its' relationship with the EU, this will coincide with a newly elected europsceptic and anti-Lisbon Tory government in the UK intent on re-negotiating its own relationship with the EU.
Ireland will be forced into the UK camp as most nations in the EU will still see the need for the reforms envisioned in Lisbon and we will certainly not be able to join this group.

This is very important. Many are happy to say that they are Pro-EU but anti-Lisbon or Pro-European but anti-Lisbon, but this differentiation will not be open to us. This is not about being anglophobic or not this is about seeing the bigger picture and realizing that a NO vote will not be business as usual, we will decide what side of an approaching schism we are on.

It is honest and right to point out that we as a nation have a choice and that is to continue in our constructive engagement with the other nations of the EU or to follow an increasingly eurosceptic UK.

If Ireland was to vote yes to Lisbon, how can Ireland force constructive engagement with the European Union? If Lisbon II is voted in, the European Union may be able to do just whatever it wants to do in Ireland. Dermot Ahern is working to introduce blasphemy legislation that will see people fined 100,000 Euros for posting a factual youtube of the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers NYC NY USA and adding the comment "Islam is most certainly not the religion of peace and there are aspects of Islam, which present a clear and danger to basic freedoms, such as the right to life." The fact that the present Government has not been forced out of office for attempting to introduce such a piece of legislation, is illustrative of the possibilities for the construction of a Naziesque terror state, by the legislative method. Whilst the threat that Dermot Ahern's blasphemy bill poses, is easily within the resources of democratic civil society in Ireland to counter, an out of control European Union once Lisbon II is signed up to, will not be.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer