How can Lisbon II be defeated.

[seabhac siulach]

To defeat Lisbon II, it would probably help if the turnout is low. This may be likely as popular disillusionment with politicians of all stripes is high. Politicians have lost any moral authority they had (which is one of the real reasons citizens ignored their collective advice last year). People are also turned off with the idea of voting again until the 'right' answer is given.

Linking Lisbon II to the economy would be another effective way to defeat Lisbon II. For example, a slogan such as 'Vote NO to get them out' (referring to the Fianna Fail govt.) would likely be very effective as it would link the referendum result to giving the govt. a 'kicking'.

[sarahj]

To defeat Lisbon II, it would probably help if the turnout is low. This may be likely as popular disillusionment with politicians of all stripes is high. Politicians have lost any moral authority they had (which is one of the real reasons citizens ignored their collective advice last year). People are also turned off with the idea of voting again until the 'right' answer is given.

Linking Lisbon II to the economy would be another effective way to defeat Lisbon II. For example, a slogan such as 'Vote NO to get them out' (referring to the Fianna Fail govt.) would likely be very effective as it would link the referendum result to giving the govt. a 'kicking'.

I think to PASS Lisbon turnout will have to be low. I think any additional voters will be "no" votes, especially given that the "yes" side has support from the main political parties who are the ones people are actually disillusioned with.

[FutureTaoiseach]

No Molloyjh. Competences are merely areas in which they EU may legislate or make decisions. Legal-expert Cathryn Costello wrote about the Charter's implications for asylum in 2003, expressing the view it would open up our ban on asylum seekers working to challenge in the ECJ. I will post the relevant link later today.

To defeat Lisbon II, it would probably help if the turnout is low. This may be likely as popular disillusionment with politicians of all stripes is high. Politicians have lost any moral authority they had (which is one of the real reasons citizens ignored their collective advice last year). People are also turned off with the idea of voting again until the 'right' answer is given.

I strongly disagree. To defeat Lisbon II, we need to maximise turnout in the working-class urban areas which remain the most Eurocritical. These are the people at the cold face of job-displacement in competition with cheap migrant labour from the Accession states. 68% of the working-class voted no in Lisbon I, overcoming a 58-42 yes majority in the middle-classes. They won't take kindly to voting for what they might see a Turkish EU membership, given that France and Germany have already said that for further Enlargement to take place they want Lisbon ratified first. Turning the referendum into one on Turkish EU membership will certainly increase support for a no vote.

[molloyjh]

To defeat Lisbon II, it would probably help if the turnout is low. This may be likely as popular disillusionment with politicians of all stripes is high. Politicians have lost any moral authority they had (which is one of the real reasons citizens ignored their collective advice last year). People are also turned off with the idea of voting again until the 'right' answer is given.

Linking Lisbon II to the economy would be another effective way to defeat Lisbon II. For example, a slogan such as 'Vote NO to get them out' (referring to the Fianna Fail govt.) would likely be very effective as it would link the referendum result to giving the govt. a 'kicking'.

Or, you know, we could vote on the Treaty and give the Government a "kicking" in the next General Election???? Just a thought.

[seabhac siulach]

Or, you know, we could vote on the Treaty and give the Government a "kicking" in the next General Election???? Just a thought.

Only if the next General Election is before the Lisbon II vote. Has a more unpopular govt. ever won a referendum? Any referendum campaign will definitely be linked to their popularity (fairly or unfairly).
The truly patriotic thing (for the good of the country) would be for Fianna Fail/Greens to call an election before the referendum. This would remove the risk that people will again vote 'No' for reasons unrelated to the merits of the treaty. I believe Fianna Fail have recently chosen to use the word 'patriotism' in some of its speeches. Well, true patriotism would entail them calling an election now so that Lisbon may be passed (an overriding foreign policy objective).

[FutureTaoiseach]

Only if the next General Election is before the Lisbon II vote. Has a more unpopular govt. ever won a referendum? Any referendum campaign will definitely be linked to their popularity (fairly or unfairly).
The truly patriotic thing (for the good of the country) would be for Fianna Fail/Greens to call an election before the referendum. This would remove the risk that people will again vote 'No' for reasons unrelated to the merits of the treaty. I believe Fianna Fail have recently chosen to use the word 'patriotism' in some of its speeches. Well, true patriotism would entail them calling an election now so that Lisbon may be passed (an overriding foreign policy objective).

Unfortunately, an unpopular govt won Nice 2.

[molloyjh]

Did they? And how do we know this? I am aware that the French parliament have approved it, but I still am unsure as to how you can draw the conclusion from it that the people supported this approval.

I'm not worried about it at all...the only thing that's worrying me is your failure to accept an argument based on two valid assumptions and which makes a valid conclusion.

And your smoking distraction was nothing more than that - a distraction. The smoking issue is a belief which has been proven wrong. This is one of fact - unless a referendum is held in France on the Lisbon treaty, the only assumption we can make as to the will of the French people is that which they demonstrated on that "certainly extremely similar" document in 2005. Darling.

Surely I don't need to go through this again, do I?

Go through it as many times as you like Sarah. I really don't give a fiddlers. I provided a link a few pages back quoting a poll showing clear French support for Lisbon as of July 2008. That coupled with the facts that they elected Sarkozy, someone who advocated Lisbon in all but name, and never once made any noises suggesting they didn't want him to ratify it or where unhappy when he did (given the French peoples love of making noise over things they object to) is evidence that their opinion of Lisbon is different to their opinion of the Constitution. I never said it was proof, but it's more up to date and relevant (to Lisbon) than their vote on the Constitution. And noone here, especially not you, have given any evidence to the contrary. It's quite simple really.

As for the smoking "distraction" I was pointing out that peoples perspectives change over time. Saying they opposed the Constitution 4 years ago does not prove anything about what they believe now.

[molloyjh]

Only if the next General Election is before the Lisbon II vote. Has a more unpopular govt. ever won a referendum? Any referendum campaign will definitely be linked to their popularity (fairly or unfairly).
The truly patriotic thing (for the good of the country) would be for Fianna Fail/Greens to call an election before the referendum. This would remove the risk that people will again vote 'No' for reasons unrelated to the merits of the treaty. I believe Fianna Fail have recently chosen to use the word 'patriotism' in some of its speeches. Well, true patriotism would entail them calling an election now so that Lisbon may be passed (an overriding foreign policy objective).

The Lisbon referendum should be dealt with on its own merits. The domestic issues are seperate issues. While you will find me in complete agreement on the GE issue I am keeping it seperate from Lisbon. I can't see a reason why I should do any different.

[eyeSpy]

Lisbon 2 could be defeated if Dick Roche, Martin Cullen and Mary Harney do a Ganley on it and say they'll step away from politics if they loose.

[FutureTaoiseach]

These are the Lisbon provisions on the role of national-parliaments, none of which allow them to block EU legislation, rendering them toothless:

"TITLE II PROVISIONS ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES
Article 8
In all its activities, the Union shall observe the principle of the equality of its citizens, who shall receive equal attention from its institutions, bodies, offices and agencies. Every national of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship and shall not replace it.
Article 8a
1. The functioning of the Union shall be founded on representative democracy.
2. Citizens are directly represented at Union level in the European Parliament.

Member States are represented in the European Council by their Heads of State or Government and in the Council by their governments, themselves democratically accountable either to their national Parliaments, or to their citizens.
3. Every citizen shall have the right to participate in the democratic life of the Union. Decisions shall be taken as openly and as closely as possible to the citizen.
4. Political parties at European level contribute to forming European political awareness and to expressing the will of citizens of the Union.
Article 8b
1. The institutions shall, by appropriate means, give citizens and representative associations the opportunity to make known and publicly exchange their views in all areas of Union action.
2. The institutions shall maintain an open, transparent and regular dialogue with representative associations and civil society.
3. The Commission shall carry out broad consultations with parties concerned in order to ensure that the Union's actions are coherent and transparent.
4. Not less than one million citizens who are nationals of a significant number of Member States may take the initiative of inviting the Commission, within the framework of its powers, to submit any appropriate proposal on matters where citizens consider that a legal act of the Union is required for the purpose of implementing the Treaties.
The procedures and conditions required for such a citizens' initiative shall be determined in accordance with the first paragraph of Article 21 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
Article 8c
National Parliaments shall contribute actively to the good functioning of the Union:
(a) through being informed by the institutions of the Union and having draft European legislative acts forwarded to them in accordance with the Protocol on the role of national Parliaments in the European Union;
(b) by seeing to it that the principle of subsidiarity is respected in accordance with the procedures provided for in the Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality;
(c) by taking part, within the framework of the area of freedom, security and justice, in the evaluation mechanisms for the implementation of the Union policies in that area, in accordance with Article 64 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, and through being involved in the political monitoring of Europol and the evaluation of Eurojust's activities in accordance with Articles 69k and 69h of that Treaty;
(d) by taking part in the revision procedures of the Treaties, in accordance with Article 33 of this Treaty;
(e) by being notified of applications for accession to the Union, in accordance with Article 34 of this Treaty;
(f) by taking part in the inter-parliamentary cooperation between national Parliaments and with the European Parliament, in accordance with the Protocol on the role of national Parliaments in the European Union

In that context, here is the aforementioned Protocol:

Protocol ON THE ROLE OF NATIONAL PARLIAMENTS IN THE EUROPEAN UNIONTHE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES,
RECALLING that the way in which national Parliaments scrutinise their governments in relation to the activities of the European Union is a matter for the particular constitutional organisation and practice of each Member State;
DESIRING to encourage greater involvement of national Parliaments in the activities of the European Union and to enhance their ability to express their views on draft legislative acts of the European Union as well as on other matters which may be of particular interest to them,
HAVE AGREED UPON the following provisions, which shall be annexed to the Treaty on European Union, to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and to the Treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community:
TITLE I
INFORMATION FOR NATIONAL PARLIAMENTS
Article 1
Commission consultation documents (green and white papers and communications) shall be forwarded directly by the Commission to national Parliaments upon publication. The Commission shall also forward the annual legislative programme as well as any other instrument of legislative planning or policy to national Parliaments, at the same time as to the European Parliament and the Council.Article 2
Draft legislative acts sent to the European Parliament and to the Council shall be forwarded to national Parliaments.
For the purposes of this Protocol, ‘draft legislative acts’ shall mean proposals from the Commission, initiatives from a group of Member States, initiatives from the European Parliament, requests from the Court of Justice, recommendations from the European Central Bank and requests from the European Investment Bank for the adoption of a legislative act.
Draft legislative acts originating from the Commission shall be forwarded to national Parliaments directly by the Commission, at the same time as to the European Parliament and the Council.
Draft legislative acts originating from the European Parliament shall be forwarded to national Parliaments directly by the European Parliament.
Draft legislative acts originating from a group of Member States, the Court of Justice, the European Central Bank or the European Investment Bank shall be forwarded to national Parliaments by the Council.
Article 3
National Parliaments may send to the Presidents of the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission a reasoned opinion on whether a draft legislative act complies with the principle of subsidiarity, in accordance with the procedure laid down in the Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.
If the draft legislative act originates from a group of Member States, the President of the Council shall forward the reasoned opinion or opinions to the governments of those Member States.
If the draft legislative act originates from the Court of Justice, the European Central Bank or the European Investment Bank, the President of the Council shall forward the reasoned opinion or opinions to the institution or body concerned.
Article 4
An eight-week period shall elapse between a draft legislative act being made available to national Parliaments in the official languages of the Union and the date when it is placed on a provisional agenda for the Council for its adoption or for adoption of a position under a legislative procedure. Exceptions shall be possible in cases of urgency, the reasons for which shall be stated in the act or position of the Council. Save in urgent cases for which due reasons have been given, no agreement may be reached on a draft legislative act during those eight weeks. Save in urgent cases for which due reasons have been given, a ten-day period shall elapse between the placing of a draft legislative act on the provisional agenda for the Council and the adoption of a position.Article 5
The agendas for and the outcome of meetings of the Council, including the minutes of meetings where the Council is deliberating on draft legislative acts, shall be forwarded directly to national Parliaments, at the same time as to Member States' governments.Article 6
When the European Council intends to make use of the first or second subparagraphs of Article 48(7) of the Treaty on European Union, national Parliaments shall be informed of the initiative of the European Council at least six months before any decision is adopted.Article 7
The Court of Auditors shall forward its annual report to national Parliaments, for information, at the same time as to the European Parliament and to the Council.Article 8
Where the national Parliamentary system is not unicameral, Articles 1 to 7 shall apply to the component chambers.TITLE II
INTERPARLIAMENTARY COOPERATION
Article 9
The European Parliament and national Parliaments shall together determine the organisation and promotion of effective and regular interparliamentary cooperation within the Union.Article 10
A conference of Parliamentary Committees for Union Affairs may submit any contribution it deems appropriate for the attention of the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission. That conference shall in addition promote the exchange of information and best practice between national Parliaments and the European Parliament, including their special committees. It may also organise interparliamentary conferences on specific topics, in particular to debate matters of common foreign and security policy, including common security and defence policy. Contributions from the conference shall not bind national Parliaments and shall not prejudge their positions.

As I have already said - none of this confers on national parliaments - either individually or collectively - any power to block EU legislation. In no way do these provisions address the democratic-deficit at the heart of Europe. Democracy is not about merely being consulted, but about wielding actual control over the process of decisionmaking. National parliaments will continue to be powerless in this respect, and with the expansion of QMV will increasingly find themselves hemmed-in as to what legislation they can pass by an ever-expanding flood of directives/regulations/decisions handed down from the bureaucrats in Brussels, whom - with the exception of our 12 MEPs (out of over 750) and Irish govt ministers (0.85% of the Council of Ministers vote) - we do not elect.