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About LinkBacks'Do as you're told. Vote YES.'Originally Posted by west'sawake
Picture of Iceland - 'This is what happens to people who keep asking questions. Vote YES.'
'Do as you're told. Vote YES.'
Picture of Iceland - 'This is what happens to people who keep asking questions. Vote YES.'
Just thought I add this little bit of info into the fisheries debate raised by FT. Not that I think he'll listen or respond given his history of high-tailing it at the first sign of provable facts....
Have a look at this site.
http://www.marine.ie/NR/rdonlyres/B2...oflandings.pdf
Basically it reckons that on average there is €460m worth taken from the Irish EEZ annually (since 1973) and €800m from around Ireland. We already take 28% within the EEZ and 15% outside. So annually we "lose" approx €331m within the EEZ but we can assume (I think anyway) that we would take in around the same equivalent outside the EEZ. So over 35 years that would be just over €11.5 billion we have lost in the fishing industry. That in itself assumes we would have had the ability to land all that fish ourselves in that time period also, which we wouldn't have been able to do, but even still lets just assume we could and work with this inflated figure.
We got €1.4 billion from the EU in 2005 alone FFS (http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusine...10007375.shtml)!
Up to 2002 we were net beneficiaries to the tune of over €34 billion (http://www.finfacts.ie/comment/irela...tsbenefits.htm).
Given that we are still net beneficiaries (until at least 2013) it would be relatively safe to say that thus far we have received from the EU well over 3 times what we would have gotten from the fisheries industry:
Lost in Fisheries: €11.5bn
Gained in direct EU funding until 2002: €34bn
Guestimated amt gained 2003-2008 (@ avg 1bn a year): €6bn
Total Gained: €40bn
40/11.5 = approx 3.48 (this based on the exaggerated €11.5bn)
Then we need to factor in all the indirect income we have gained in terms of foreign investment (which is in part due to our Corporate Tax, but also our access to the EU markets).
So not only is your fishing industry claim completely bogus, I've also shown that membership of the EU has been an overwhelmingly positive thing for Ireland. Of course all that money was just a ploy to lull us into a false sense of security before the hand of facism (or is it socialism) comes crashing down on us, eh FT?
The Dept of the Marine, which has effectively criminalised Irish fishermen, is hardly an impartial source of information on this question. The €200 billion figure is also referred to in the Donegal Democrat. And most of the Brussels billions went in CAP payments anyway. We remained beset with mass unemployment and emigration for the first 20 years of EU membership. The role of American FDI was far more important, as were our tax-reforms and the devaluation of the Punt in 1992 which boosted exports. We are now back in a recession largely the product of an unholy alliance between an incompetent govt, an ECB imposing Franco-German interest rates, and mass-migration resulting from EU Enlargement. For the first 10 years of Eurozone membership, Irish inflated ranged from 4-7%, while Eurozone interest rates ranged from 2-5%. Were EMU not an establioshed fact, such a monetary policy for Ireland would have been inconceivable. Together with unregulated mass-immigration from the Accession states, these factors conspired to overheat the property-market to the point where 25% of men were employed in the construction-sector, meaning that the crash, when it came, was all-consuming in the devastation wreaked on the economy. If there are lessons to be learned from this disaster, they include supping with a long spoon where European integration is concerned.
molloy you forget we could have accessed EU markets via the EEA without signing up to the common fisheries policy.
Surely there shouldn't be a "No" side and a "Yes" side. Surely we should be able to just stand back and look at what is best for the people of Ireland (and not those bureaucrats in Brussels sitting doling out orders)?!
I am a "No" voter and will continue to be. I see Lisbon as another step in the centralisation of decision making world wide...Lisbon is a threat to democracy.
I see this fisheries theme returning every month, never with definite answers.
I have created a mailing list to discuss the fisheries issues. If interested, please contact me at arnaudherve@gmail.com . No side only, please.
[size=1][color=grey]My name is Plissken[/color][/size]
Um...just coz the money flows work out as a net benefit for Ireland (though I'm not sure you've taken into account all the other costs on our part) doesn't mean that Lisbon, the EU or the fisheries policy is a good thing.
Unfortunately, money is the key decider nowadays for most things. But money is only an arbitrary comparator of relative supply and ability to pay for different resources. It should not be an isolated decision making tool. How about looking at the effects of EU monetary policy on our economy or the effects of privatisation on our health services (which is pushed in Lisbon) or the greater inequality in income which has happened during our EU membership?
Nevermind the sham our democracy has turned into with our local and national parliaments useless and merely a club for the lads to hang out and shout insults at each other across the house every so often. We don't make decisions here, we do what the EU (or the all knowing markets) tell us. The only real decision we can make is when to say yes to a treaty every few years. We get to decide whether we'll agree the first time or whether we'll make them plamas us a little bit.
Got this txt today with a slogan for the No side,
'Vote Yes or elseFine as long as you tie FF in there somewhere .. that'll really get folk worked up
How bout a BIG FF logo (as opposed to the teeny recent ones )
Vote Yes or Else(how do you increase the font on a post?)
Lisbon II Same as Lisbon I - as Endorsed by
Last edited by Collegebhoy; 16th June 2009 at 02:22 PM.
The great Gaels of Ireland Are the men that God made mad. For all their wars are merry, And all their songs are sad -G.K. Chesterton
Fianna Fail, Fine Gael. Two cheeks of the same arse
I have to disagree with your implication - Lisbon and the EU are certainly not socialist. They are about completely free markets, privatisation of all resources and services and centralised decision making.
That's not socialism. It's corporate fascism.
Cheers for the reps btw!
Last edited by sarahj; 16th June 2009 at 02:29 PM. Reason: to say thanks!
Actually FT's 'Jobs Not Lisbon' slogan is a winner. In one simple statement it makes the referendum about the government and Yes parties obseession with getting Lisbon passed as against the priority of the ordinary person on the street being of more day to day matters in their lives.
That slogan is a winner!
