Has the no to Lisbon campaign in Ireland been terminally damaged?

[oceanclub]

Get off the stage would you. There are huge similarities between the USSR and Third Reich for example the huge numbers of innocent people they murdered, the elevation to almost God like status of Hitler and Stalin.

I group those similarities under "dictatorship". Please keep to the topic of economics.

P.

[CookieMonster]

It has. It will pass.

[eurosceptic]

Dont be so pessimistic cookie. While this is a severe blow look at what actually happened. Yes MLM lost her seat, but to JH. Joe will be a safer person to have on Tv because of all the people in foxrock, dalkey etc. who voted yes because of the shinners. KS only lost on the last count and she only barely got in last time. DG did rather well after although not quite enough. As i have said this will lead to a diversification of the no campaign and make the planned justin barrett 2 a lot more difficult. In case anyone hadnt noticed there was a deliberate campaign to build up a few people on the no side in preperation for a few last minute "scandals".

[Adrian Wainer]

Of course its complex........
Buying a house has a ridiculously complicated contract.
What do you expect a contract regulating an EU of 27+ nation States to be.....
If it wasnt extremely complex, there would be something wrong with the bloody thing.
And if it was more principled/aspirational like a Constitution, people would hammer it for being too vague, as allowing almost anything to happen if it was interpreted one way or another......

The point is that, with every complicated contract, the average Joe cannot be expected to understand it fully - they expect to be advised by their politicians, the media, experts of various hues. And then we make a call. Fair enough, if you think that all of the above are keen to lead us into the oblivion of a police state or neo-liberal Europe which will completely restrict our fundamental freedoms etc, fair enough, but that is complete rubbish.

In any case, as you now admit that most contracts we enter into are not understood, can you please withdraw the "How can people enter into a "contract", when its not understood???!!??!!" sensationalism you were spewing earlier?

Suggesting that a contract for buying a house and the EU constitution are some way similar, in the way that you are apparently suggesting is completely ridiculous. For example, you would not get a nice guy who you would drink with down the pub who was say a graphic designer and knew nothing about contracts to check out the contract, if one was buying a house. Neither would one get somebody who was an expert solicitor but had been disbarred and just released from prison for cheating people buying houses, by telling them rubbish about contracts they were signing. I am sure there are nice, decent and honest people in Fianna Fail but unless they are experts in EU constitutional Law, their opinion is no more valid on the Lisbon II constitution than the fictional graphic designer's opinion on a house contract. Furthermore, why would anyone have any confidence in an argument that, if Fianna Fail thought the Lisbon II treaty was dangerous garbage that should not be touched with a barge pole, they would tell the Irish people to vote against it? Take the proposed blasphemy legislation, Dermot Ahern does not seem to me to be a complete moron, if he is not a complete moron, why would he be proposing such blasphemy legislation when it dangerous, nasty and unnecessary if it is not an attempt to ingratiate Fianna Fail with Saudi Arabia? Also if people are going to own a house they going to need a contract, why is Lisbon II needed, what do they need to do in the European Union that they can not do at the moment?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[CookieMonster]

Most Irish people (finally) realise that the EU is good for Ireland and has been good for Ireland so we should be at the heart of it

That's total nonsense. The people of Ireland have for a long time realised that the EU is good for Ireland. Successive Eurobarometer polls reveal this. What they relised last June is that the Lisbon Treaty may not have been good for both Ireland and the EU. Since then what has happened is that out weak kneed politicians haven't bothered their ar*se addressing the concerns of the irish people, rather they decided to engage in a wool pulling exercise instead.

There is and never was a question over "in or out" or over "ireland's place in Europe" it was about accepting the Lisbon Treaty or rejecting it. Ireland was the only place where the people were allowed decide that and they erred on the side of caution and rejected it. And well done to them for that. The only way our Government could see success last June was to make the referendum something it's not and do as you've done about and fudge the issue.

But that's irrelevant now, It will pass, sadly. At least we had the option to say no, at least we were asked which was thanks to our constitution and the work of Crotty and Co.

[Chuck de Mawl]

There is and never was a question over "in or out" or over "ireland's place in Europe" it was about accepting the Lisbon Treaty or rejecting it.

and it's not about Declan Ganley, or Kathy Sinnott, or Mary Lou McDonald either.

to paraphrase someone else. Neither Lisbon nor Libertas!

But that's irrelevant now, It will pass, sadly. At least we had the option to say no, at least we were asked which was thanks to our constitution and the work of Crotty and Co.

Yup, there's a man who doesn't get enough mention or respect, especially compared to the crooks who stitched up this country over the years, and still got re-elected.

[Adrian Wainer]

I group those similarities under "dictatorship". Please keep to the topic of economics.

P.

Sorry, I do not see society being defined by economics. I see society as being defined by its effect on human beings.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[marmurr1916]

It will pass. Full stop. Arguing about its merits and demerits here or elsewhere won't make a whit of difference.

The public mood has changed and the majority of people will vote Yes in the next referendum.

It would be an easier victory if the government fell and was replaced by a Fine Gael-Labour coalition.

However, even that's not necessary as the Yes campaign will be led by Fine Gael and Labour anyway.

Brian Crowley is still personally popular enough in Munster to be an asset to the campaign if he puts enough of an effort in.

The Yes side has learned its lesson from the last campaign and will campaign with intensity to ensure a Yes vote.

The Lisbon ratification process in Ireland is essentially a re-run of the Nice ratification process.

Unfortunately, the Yes side last June did not learn the lessons of the first Nice referendum.

This time round they will have learned and hopefully they'll remember in future referendum campaigns.

[CookieMonster]

and it's not about Declan Ganley, or Kathy Sinnott, or Mary Lou McDonald either.

to paraphrase someone else. Neither Lisbon nor Libertas!

Libertas' involvement in the Lisbon Treaty campaign was never about choosing Libertas over something else, it was about arguing the reasons to reject Lisbon. We put forward that choice over the last six months and we got our answer on Friday.

Libertas played a part, a significant one, in the Lisbon treaty campaign but I met far too many good people from all sides of the political divide during the Lisbon campaign to claim credit for the result. And at the end of the day it was the voters who made the final decision, not us.

[Verhofstadt]

It has. It will pass.

Commiserations CookieMonster, Democracy is a though old game.

Now that we no longer campaigning /spinning etc

Any hope you giving your thoughts on where Libertas got it wrong?

Be interesting to hear the views of "an insider"