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Thread: Has the no to Lisbon campaign in Ireland been terminally damaged?

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by molloyjh View Post
    They didn't have to have one for starters. Why they didn't is a question for the policy makers in those countries. I can't answer that. All I know is that there was no reaction or outrage to the fact that they didn't in either country, so it would seem that the people weren't that pushed.
    Well, when the Wehrmacht arrived in Paris in 1940, the leading French Communist newspaper, ran an editorial advising its readers to actively collaborate with the Nazis. And the Petainists started rounding up the Jews before the Germans even got round to asking for them. The people of France have been betrayed for decades by Republicans who are not republicans, Socialists who are not socialists and Communists who are not communists, George Orwell's Animal Farm is about the level of it and the pigs are in Farmer Jones' House in Paris, also known as the Palais de l'Elysée.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k83WArW5XU"]YouTube - America First (Woody Guthrie)[/ame]

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    Adrian Wainer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wainer View Post
    Well, when the Wehrmacht arrived in Paris in 1940, the leading French Communist newspaper, ran an editorial advising its readers to actively collaborate with the Nazis. And the Petainists started rounding up the Jews before the Germans even got round to asking for them. The people of France have been betrayed for decades by Republicans who are not republicans, Socialists who are not socialists and Communists who are not communists, George Orwell's Animal Farm is about the level of it and the pigs are in Farmer Jones' House in Paris, also known as the Palais de l'Elysée.

    YouTube - America First (Woody Guthrie)

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    Adrian Wainer
    What exactly is your point and how does it relate to what I said?

  3. #213
    Politics.ie Regular TommyO'Brien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verhofstadt View Post
    With Libertas imploding across Europe and Mary Lou and Kathy Sinnott losing their seats, admittedly by tight margins, has the No to Lisbon camp been damaged beyond repair?

    Joe Higgins is admittedly elected and is anti Lisbon but that was only part of his campaign.. and I believe he got votes from Dubliners who were more anti FF than anti Lisbon.

    Key Issues | Joe Higgins.eu

    His 10 point manifesto was a standard leftist agenda focussing on national issues in the main.

    So with only Joe (who will run a mile from the Coir / PLC crowd) How can they recover between now and October?

    Admittedly without a change of government the Yes campaign will hardly be inspiring either.
    I wouldn't say 'terminally' but I would say 'critically'.

    Lisbon I had one unique component. As usual it had the usual suspects (Sinn Féin, the hard left, Coir) most of whom the electorate would not touch with a bargepole, a fact shown again in the difficulty SF candidates had in getting transfers in the locals and Europeans. The new element this time was Libertas and Ganley, who went into the campaign as an unknown, someone who seemed to have little in common with the hard left or the hard right, and so who added a new credibility to the No side. There was a feeling of 'he's a successful businessman, an ex-FFer, so if he is against it it must be bad.'

    For many voters who frankly hold their noses at voting on the same side as the looney left or the hard right, Ganley gave an opt out.

    The last year had seriously weakened Ganley's perceived middle of the road neutrality. Revelations about his role in Albania, his links with some in the US, and his closeness to the Catholic right, plus the collection of often repulsive nutters he pulled in to run for Libertas in Europe (homophobes, anti-semites, extreme religious fundmentalists, etc) removed his middle of the road appeal. That problem was magnified severely when not alone did he not win a seat - and in the process engaged in quite vicious and unfair smearing of rival candidates - but Libertas Europe-wide was humiliated, winning only 1 seat, for an extreme anti-semite French aristocrat.

    The defeat of Libertas means that in Lisbon II the No side will be much more of a traditional hard left/hard right variety. As canvassers have often found, SF in European referenda lose as many votes to the No side as they bring to it, with a lot of people saying 'I cannot bring myself to vote the same way as Sinn Féin on something' - it is the same mantra that is heard in every election and referendum. (SF openly admit that problem privately, which is why they don't get a proportional number of transfers to their first preference votes.)

    Another problem will be that the ability of Mary Lou and Patricia McKenna to claim to speak on behalf of the people of Ireland will have been undermined by the fact that both were rejected. In fact SF had a pathetically bad result in the Republic, a fact that has escaped attention because FF and the Greens did woeful. But SF themselves admit that on those results a number of their TDs would lose their seats in a general election. They are seriously worried about that.

    The No side was not done terminal damage. But the damage was major. The only prominent No campaigner in the Euros to come through unscathed was Joe Higgins who against predictions (and to his own horror, as he never wanted to) won a seat. The No side is seriously weaker, with Sinn Féin, Patricia McKenna and Kathy Sinnott all badly weakened, and Libertas destroyed.

  4. #214
    Politics.ie Regular Verhofstadt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyO'Brien View Post
    I wouldn't say 'terminally' but I would say 'critically'.

    Lisbon I had one unique component. As usual it had the usual suspects (Sinn Féin, the hard left, Coir) most of whom the electorate would not touch with a bargepole, a fact shown again in the difficulty SF candidates had in getting transfers in the locals and Europeans. The new element this time was Libertas and Ganley, who went into the campaign as an unknown, someone who seemed to have little in common with the hard left or the hard right, and so who added a new credibility to the No side. There was a feeling of 'he's a successful businessman, an ex-FFer, so if he is against it it must be bad.'

    For many voters who frankly hold their noses at voting on the same side as the looney left or the hard right, Ganley gave an opt out.

    The last year had seriously weakened Ganley's perceived middle of the road neutrality. Revelations about his role in Albania, his links with some in the US, and his closeness to the Catholic right, plus the collection of often repulsive nutters he pulled in to run for Libertas in Europe (homophobes, anti-semites, extreme religious fundmentalists, etc) removed his middle of the road appeal. That problem was magnified severely when not alone did he not win a seat - and in the process engaged in quite vicious and unfair smearing of rival candidates - but Libertas Europe-wide was humiliated, winning only 1 seat, for an extreme anti-semite French aristocrat.

    The defeat of Libertas means that in Lisbon II the No side will be much more of a traditional hard left/hard right variety. As canvassers have often found, SF in European referenda lose as many votes to the No side as they bring to it, with a lot of people saying 'I cannot bring myself to vote the same way as Sinn Féin on something' - it is the same mantra that is heard in every election and referendum. (SF openly admit that problem privately, which is why they don't get a proportional number of transfers to their first preference votes.)

    Another problem will be that the ability of Mary Lou and Patricia McKenna to claim to speak on behalf of the people of Ireland will have been undermined by the fact that both were rejected. In fact SF had a pathetically bad result in the Republic, a fact that has escaped attention because FF and the Greens did woeful. But SF themselves admit that on those results a number of their TDs would lose their seats in a general election. They are seriously worried about that.

    The No side was not done terminal damage. But the damage was major. The only prominent No campaigner in the Euros to come through unscathed was Joe Higgins who against predictions (and to his own horror, as he never wanted to) won a seat. The No side is seriously weaker, with Sinn Féin, Patricia McKenna and Kathy Sinnott all badly weakened, and Libertas destroyed.
    Great post Tommy

    Agree with on pretty much every point.

    I think rural and middle class urban Ireland have rejected the No to Lisbon arguements in the shape of Libertas, McKenna and Sinnott.

    The question then is if Higgins and the Shinners can get a sufficient urban working class vote out to say no.

    I think not at this stage but a lot can change between now and Lisbon II.

    I would say that every Higgins voter is not, by default at no voter. People voted for Joe based on their desire for an honest man who is uncorrupted, they are not all card carrying Socialists by a long shot.

    It is up to Fine Gael and Labour (FF are toxic to too many) to convince the silent majority of Ireland to come out and vote. I think the odds are with them.

    We'll see soon enough.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verhofstadt View Post
    It is up to Fine Gael and Labour (FF are toxic to too many) to convince the silent majority of Ireland to come out and vote. I think the odds are with them.

    We'll see soon enough.
    In that case it should be up to FG and certainly NOT including Labour in the Yes Camp.

    On 20/7/2008 on RTE Radio 1 Eamon Gilmore said the possibility of a second referendum "is off the table", that we had a result and that there was no possibility of a second attempt.

    And yes the following is I concede Labour Youth but please read: Labour Youth Passes Motion against Lisbon Treaty | Campaign Against the EU Constitution

    Labour should take NO active part in promoting/supporting Lisbon MKII. To do so makes a mockery of the prior words/views of their Leader and is completely it seems 100% at variance with the Labour Youth position as per the above.

  6. #216
    Politics.ie Regular TommyO'Brien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ah Well View Post
    In that case it should be up to FG and certainly NOT including Labour in the Yes Camp.

    On 20/7/2008 on RTE Radio 1 Eamon Gilmore said the possibility of a second referendum "is off the table", that we had a result and that there was no possibility of a second attempt.

    And yes the following is I concede Labour Youth but please read: Labour Youth Passes Motion against Lisbon Treaty | Campaign Against the EU Constitution

    Labour should take NO active part in promoting/supporting Lisbon MKII. To do so makes a mockery of the prior words/views of their Leader and is completely it seems 100% at variance with the Labour Youth position as per the above.
    Sorry to break the news but Labour Youth's position, like all the youth sections of the main parties, is not worth a pitcher of warm spit. Parties always have ignored motions passed by their youth wings.

    Labour has already decided to mount a full active Yes campaign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyO'Brien View Post
    Sorry to break the news but Labour Youth's position, like all the youth sections of the main parties, is not worth a pitcher of warm spit. Parties always have ignored motions passed by their youth wings.

    Labour has already decided to mount a full active Yes campaign.
    Fine so;

    On 20/7/2008 on RTE Radio 1 Eamon Gilmore the LEADER of the Lab Party said the possibility of a second referendum "is off the table", that we had a result and that there was no possibility of a second attempt.

    And you state they're mounting a full active Yes campaign.

    What a joke in that case

  8. #218
    Politics.ie Regular The Red Rose of Cork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ah Well View Post
    In that case it should be up to FG and certainly NOT including Labour in the Yes Camp.

    On 20/7/2008 on RTE Radio 1 Eamon Gilmore said the possibility of a second referendum "is off the table", that we had a result and that there was no possibility of a second attempt.

    And yes the following is I concede Labour Youth but please read: Labour Youth Passes Motion against Lisbon Treaty | Campaign Against the EU Constitution

    Labour should take NO active part in promoting/supporting Lisbon MKII. To do so makes a mockery of the prior words/views of their Leader and is completely it seems 100% at variance with the Labour Youth position as per the above.

    Labour Youth yesterday voted to campaign for a YES vote in October following a meeting of its national council in Cork

  9. #219
    He3
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Rose of Cork View Post
    Labour Youth yesterday voted to campaign for a YES vote in October following a meeting of its national council in Cork
    What was the vote?

  10. #220
    Politics.ie Regular The Red Rose of Cork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He3 View Post
    What was the vote?

    not sure , just heard they passed it after a debate in Cork with two external speakers fron either side.

    statement from Alan Kelly Press releases » Media centre » The Labour Party

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