Has the no to Lisbon campaign in Ireland been terminally damaged?

[Adrian Wainer]

Of course its complex........
Buying a house has a ridiculously complicated contract.
What do you expect a contract regulating an EU of 27+ nation States to be.....
If it wasnt extremely complex, there would be something wrong with the bloody thing.
And if it was more principled/aspirational like a Constitution, people would hammer it for being too vague, as allowing almost anything to happen if it was interpreted one way or another......

The point is that, with every complicated contract, the average Joe cannot be expected to understand it fully - they expect to be advised by their politicians, the media, experts of various hues. And then we make a call. Fair enough, if you think that all of the above are keen to lead us into the oblivion of a police state or neo-liberal Europe which will completely restrict our fundamental freedoms etc, fair enough, but that is complete rubbish.

In any case, as you now admit that most contracts we enter into are not understood, can you please withdraw the "How can people enter into a "contract", when its not understood???!!??!!" sensationalism you were spewing earlier?

And then we make a call. Fair enough, if you think that all of the above are keen to lead us into the oblivion of a police state or neo-liberal Europe which will completely restrict our fundamental freedoms etc, fair enough, but that is complete rubbish.

Suggesting that a contract for buying a house and the EU constitution are some way similar, in the way that you are apparently suggesting is completely ridiculous. For example, you would not get a nice guy who you would drink with down the pub who was say a graphic designer and knew nothing about contracts to check out the contract, if one was buying a house. Neither would one get somebody who was an expert solicitor but had been disbarred and just released from prison for cheating people buying houses, by telling them rubbish about contracts they were signing. I am sure there are nice, decent and honest people in Fianna Fail but unless they are experts in EU constitutional Law, their opinion is no more valid on the Lisbon II constitution than the fictional graphic designer's opinion on a house contract. Furthermore, why would anyone have any confidence in an argument that, if Fianna Fail thought the Lisbon II treaty was dangerous garbage that should not be touched with a barge pole, they would tell the Irish people to vote against it? Take the proposed blasphemy legislation, Dermot Ahern does not seem to me to be a complete moron, if he is not a complete moron, why would he be proposing such blasphemy legislation when it dangerous, nasty and unnecessary if it is not an attempt to ingratiate Fianna Fail with Saudi Arabia? Also if people are going to own a house they going to need a contract, why is Lisbon II needed, what do they need to do in the European Union that they can not do at the moment?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian, you started that paragraph by making some sense but seemed to have trailed off into tangents and side and non-issues.

It seems your core point is that politicians are not the ideal person to give you advice on the Lisbon "contract"....?

Thats a fair point but not entirely true. Lisbon, as an international treaty, is a political instrument as well as a contract. It is legal, economic, political and social in nature. Therefore, the views of politicians are pertinent. So are the views of lawyers, economists, social commentators and many more.

As you declare that my analogy was ridiculous, I presume you didnt understand it; let me clarify. My analogy with a contract to buy a house is that most people cannot be expected to interpret and understand that contract fully themselves; equally, most people cannot be expected to interpret Lisbon fully, they need specialist advice. The views of many are needed.

Adrian, you started that paragraph by making some sense but seemed to have trailed off into tangents and side and non-issues.

I disagree I regard all my remarks as relevant.

It seems your core point is that politicians are not the ideal person to give you advice on the Lisbon "contract"....?

I would go beyond saying that the pro-treaty politicians are not the ideal folks to get advice on the Lisbon II treaty, I would say the pro-treaty politicians, though not all of them, are akin to folks who turn up in places, they think they are likely to find impressionable young people and proceed to offer them free trials of marijuana in the hope of addicting them to the stuff, for which they then can be charged at commercial market prices, once they have developed an addiction.

Thats a fair point but not entirely true. Lisbon, as an international treaty, is a political instrument as well as a contract. It is legal, economic, political and social in nature. Therefore, the views of politicians are pertinent. So are the views of lawyers, economists, social commentators and many more.

I am perfectly aware in general terms what Lisbon II is. And I am not seeking to censor anybody from saying what they want to say about it. That said I believe that the Irish political class that supports Lisbon II, broadly fits to two groups

[ 1 ] People who know that Lisbon II effectively strips Ireland of its sovereignity and don't care because though they believe that Lisbon II strips people of their rights and degrades democracy, they do not believe that the European Union once it has the full powers of the nation states transferred to it, will start to do crazy things. On the other hand, I believe there is a very high likely hood it will start to do crazy things.

[ 2 ] Well intentioned fools who think, Lisbon II is all about democracy, freedom, motherhood and apple pie.

As you declare that my analogy was ridiculous, I presume you didnt understand it; let me clarify. My analogy with a contract to buy a house is that most people cannot be expected to interpret and understand that contract fully themselves; equally, most people cannot be expected to interpret Lisbon fully, they need specialist advice. The views of many are needed.

I understood the point of the analogy perfectly but you went way beyond that to suggest that,

And then we make a call. Fair enough, if you think that all of the above are keen to lead us into the oblivion of a police state or neo-liberal Europe which will completely restrict our fundamental freedoms etc, fair enough, but that is complete rubbish.

certain groups or individuals would have competence to give proper advice and if they had the competence to give proper advice would be interested in giving proper advice even if it conflicted with their personal selfish interest. An argument which I contest and that is where I assert your position becomes ridiculous. Anybody in my opinion that believes the likes of Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour do not have an agenda in supporting Lisbon II, that is outside of what is in the best interests of Ireland, is not somebody who in my opinion has a serious understanding of politics.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[drkpower]

: ) I see your point, but I don't think that 'Politicians are lying b@st@rds' needs to be fleshed out much in this forum, given the volume of evidence, and I did expand on it in my analogy, which I notice you did not address, other than in a quip (and does that count as an tangental soundbyte?)

If you genuinely consider that 'Politicians are lying b@st@rds' and that, as a result, their views on Lisbon are completely untrustworthy, then what can I say to you.......!

If I genuinely held that view, I could not obey any of the laws of this State as they must be entirely dishonest and I would be forced to leave the country. Why haven't you done so if you genuinely believe that?

That statement is pure soundbyte; it is also completely untrue. The truth is that some are completely corrupt, some are liars, some lie some of the time, some only tell white lies, and one or two dont tell any lies. In short they are just like your doctor or your teacher or your lawyer or just like you and me.

That is the reality. But its so much easier to spew "all politicians are liars" as a supposed basis on which to make a point. It means you dont have to address the issues; you can just blame one set of people and use that as the basis to support the opposite of whatever it is they propose. However, it is simply not credible and it merely shows a childish view of the world.

As for your analogy, comparing politicians with someone related to a the vendor in a house-sale assumes that our politicians are acting against our interests; of course, it is so so easy to work on that basis when all 'Politicians are lying b@st@rds', isnt it.....?

[drkpower]

Anybody in my opinion that believes the likes of Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour doesn't not have an agenda in supporting Lisbon II that is outside of what is in the best interests of Ireland, is not somebody who has a serious understanding of politics.

There's no need to repeat the entire thread, Adrian....

This is really the core of your argument, isnt it...?

Can you explain why FF, FG and Labour has an agenda that is outside Ireland's best interests?
Can you provide a factual basis for this assertion?
Can you even provide a logical theory on which to base this?

[oceanclub]

There's no need to repeat the entire thread, Adrian....

This is really the core of your argument, isnt it...?

Can you explain why FF, FG and Labour has an agenda that is outside Ireland's best interests?
Can you provide a factual basis for this assertion?
Can you even provide a logical theory on which to base this?

I admit it.

I was at the secret FG/FF/Labour meeting where we decided that the Lisbon treaty was a good idea because it meant we could have concentration camps in Ireland.

But Adrian somehow found out, and we haven't managed to silence him yet. Damn him, he's like the Scarlet Pimpernel.

P.

[eiScitilop]

yes

[marmurr1916]

I admit it.

I was at the secret FG/FF/Labour meeting where we decided that the Lisbon treaty was a good idea because it meant we could have concentration camps in Ireland.

But Adrian somehow found out, and we haven't managed to silence him yet. Damn him, he's like the Scarlet Pimpernel.

P.

More like the Scarlet Pimple.

[Chuck de Mawl]

If you genuinely consider that 'Politicians are lying b@st@rds' and that, as a result, their views on Lisbon are completely untrustworthy, then what can I say to you.......!

Not much mate. Not much.

If I genuinely held that view, I could not obey any of the laws of this State as they must be entirely dishonest and I would be forced to leave the country.

That's a non-sequitur. It assumes that they lie and corrupt absolutely, and that the judicial system is in on it, and the electorate totally powerless to restrain them.

Why haven't you done so if you genuinely believe that?

I'm no quitter amigo.

That statement is pure soundbyte; it is also completely untrue. The truth is that some are completely corrupt, some are liars, some lie some of the time, some only tell white lies, and one or two dont tell any lies. In short they are just like your doctor or your teacher or your lawyer or just like you and me.

Well if you accept that the vast majority of them are liars, and that I didn't use the word 'all' in my original statement, I used 'they' in the context of the talking heads pushing this treaty.... then where is the untruth?

That is the reality. But its so much easier to spew "all politicians are liars" as a supposed basis on which to make a point. ... However, it is simply not credible and it merely shows a childish view of the world.

Actually, neither my original post nor my second said "all" politicians are liars, but to be honest, even the most honest ones I've met have lied, when forced to spout the party line.
As for childish views, I disagree. A child is more inclined to trust authority than the average adult. A paranoid is inclined to trust nobody, and a rational person is inclined to be cautious of any politician, because they can see plenty of examples of double talk from the very talking heads we're expected to listen to.

As for your analogy, comparing politicians with someone related to a the vendor in a house-sale assumes that our politicians are acting against our interests; of course, it is so so easy to work on that basis when all 'Politicians are lying b@st@rds', isnt it.....?

As you well know, people with a vested interest should not be taken at face value.
Politicians do not always act against our interests. Just when our interests conflict with theirs, and of course, how many can you name that told us when there was a conflict of interest?

If you're so eager to debate the issue, tell me why we should believe the pro-Lisbon politicians, who after all, TELL us that they are in fear of their european colleagues, to give us an objective and honest view of the treaty (I mean c'mon, they're practically telling us that there is duress being applied, by virtue of some threat hanging over our heads)

[Adrian Wainer]

I admit it.

I was at the secret FG/FF/Labour meeting where we decided that the Lisbon treaty was a good idea because it meant we could have concentration camps in Ireland.

But Adrian somehow found out, and we haven't managed to silence him yet. Damn him, he's like the Scarlet Pimpernel.

P.

That would be a ridiculous argument and I have not made it. I have not equated Brian Cowan and Enda Kenny with SS Reichfurher Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heyrdrich. I do not believe they are evil people setting out to harm the people of Ireland. I also believe that whilst they do realize there is no democratic mandate for what the European Union is embarking on and whilst they do realize that the EU structure is essentially undemocratic, they feel that economically it will be in the best interests of Ireland to support this. I believe their confidence of Ireland deriving economic advantage from this project is seriously overly optimistic and I feel that they have majorly underestimated the possibility of the EU turning in to, a transnational terror state. I have a great deal of respect for Neville Chamberlain but it was said of him, that he initially had a problem in recognizing what he was dealing with in Adolf Hitler, in that he had spent much of his career in dealing with British politics rather than international politics and whilst British politics certainly had their rough and tumble aspects, neither he nor his opponents in British politics would be seeking to literally gut the opposition and hang them from the walls by meat hooks and in Hitler he had exactly met the sort of political figure, who operated in exactly that fashion. There is stuff that goes on in Europe, that Cowen and Kenny are completely out of their league getting involved in and Ireland has no business being part of.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

[drkpower]

Well if you accept that the vast majority of them are liars, and that I didn't use the word 'all' in my original statement, I used 'they' in the context of the talking heads pushing this treaty.
As you well know, people with a vested interest should not be taken at face value.
Politicians do not always act against our interests. Just when our interests conflict with theirs, and of course, how many can you name that told us when there was a conflict of interest?

I'll try to avoid a monster post in order to keep things relatively concise and clear.

Of course the pro-Lisbon politicians are the vast vast majority (approx 156-10....?) of our TDs, so even if you qualify the politicians to mean those ones, for all practical purposes you are saying they are all liars.

But just like Adrian, your views come down to a simple premise; the pro-Lisbon politicians are acting against the interests of the people in encouraging them to vote for the Lisbon Treaty.

Again, I pose the same question as I did to Adrian. Please provide a factual basis on which to show this assertion or, failing that, even a reasonable theory which makes some kind of sense.

[arnaudherve]

Yes, the ugly monster has been terminally terminated. It's been stomped all over, it's down, it's dead, even better than Alien vs Predator.

Except... maybe an egg, somewhere....