Government in Ireland is a mess: Better say Yes?

[Stublore]

Afaik the LT was supposed to be a 1 shot deal, if it failed the LT was scrapped.
By "asking" us to vote for LT again, this government and the EU are ignoring the democratic wishes of the people.
That is a damn good reason to vote NO! second time round.
Doing anything else sets a precedent that any future referendums can be ignored if the electorate does not vote the "correct" way, and more referendums can be held till the "correct" result is achieved.

[Jack the Bite]

The surrender of yet more powers to Brussels will add further to our difficulties.

Regarding that, there is an interesting article here:

The Euro-binge is over and Ireland is waking up to the shattering hangover.


The Agony Of Ireland… Centurean2’s Weblog

[turdsl]

Government in Ireland is a mess. The ripe stench of incompetence and corruption wafts through the corridors of power. People die on trolleys, others lose their homes, flee the country, cower from the thought police.

Reason enough to vote Yes to Lisbon in the Neverendum?

Vote no,Europe is giving too many orders even where to graze our sheep or to fish our waters.

[ibis]

Afaik the LT was supposed to be a 1 shot deal, if it failed the LT was scrapped.
By "asking" us to vote for LT again, this government and the EU are ignoring the democratic wishes of the people.
That is a damn good reason to vote NO! second time round.
Doing anything else sets a precedent that any future referendums can be ignored if the electorate does not vote the "correct" way, and more referendums can be held till the "correct" result is achieved.

There has never been a treaty of any kind that was a "1 shot deal". There's a standard two-year period built in:

If, two years after the signature of a treaty amending the Treaties, four fifths of the Member States have ratified it and one or more Member States have encountered difficulties in proceeding with ratification, the matter shall be referred to the European Council.

[arnaudherve]

What you refer to Ibis is an open discussion at the European level, possibly leading to a new text. Not a national second referendum.

However, we now observe in a new light that the sovereign No of a people is named "encountered difficulties".

The next time I suggest it would be named "was not sufficiently understood by the population" or, better, "was debated in unsatisfactory conditions".

[ibis]

What you refer to Ibis is an open discussion at the European level, possibly leading to a new text. Not a national second referendum.

However, we now observe in a new light that the sovereign No of a people is named "encountered difficulties".

The next time I suggest it would be named "was not sufficiently understood by the population" or, better, "was debated in unsatisfactory conditions".

The Irish government negotiated Lisbon, and signed up to Lisbon on the basis that they would do their best to get Lisbon ratified - indeed, any other basis for signing a treaty is false.

Our Constitution dictates that ratification is a matter for the people at referendum. It does not dictate that one referendum precludes another under any circumstances whatsoever, nor does it say that you have to wait some specified period.

Therefore, if the government feels that another referendum may lead to ratification, it is bound to run it, simply by virtue of those two facts. The only basis on which the government can turn round and honestly say to the other member states that it has really tried is to ask the people again.

[blacbloc]

Government in Ireland is a mess. The ripe stench of incompetence and corruption wafts through the corridors of power. People die on trolleys, others lose their homes, flee the country, cower from the thought police.

Reason enough to vote Yes to Lisbon in the Neverendum?

No reason whatever to vote for it. Lisbon is irrelevant to the crisis. If anything the crisis makes us even more vulnerable to pan-European policies that do not properly or sensibly reflect local conditions. Further integration now will be at the expense of the democracy and financial viability of small states who cannot compete with the likes of Germany, France and the Uk about and for whom the EU is laregly run.

[arnaudherve]

"To do their best" in common diplomatic terms meant they had to complete the procedure.

It didn't mean they had to turn against their own population at the insistance of foreign powers.

[ibis]

"To do their best" in common diplomatic terms meant they had to complete the procedure.

It didn't mean they had to turn against their own population at the insistance of foreign powers.

It means that they had to try again - had they tried properly first time, then maybe not, but I don't think anyone in the world is under the impression that they really tried the first time.

Also, the government is there to carry out government policy. While it can change that policy if the policy is unpopular, that's quite rightly regarded as populism and flip-flopping under virtually every circumstance but one - the one where one happens to agree with the change. The policy of any conceivable Irish government, including the present one, would be to seek ratification.

Finally, of course, circumstances have already changed dramatically over the last 9 months, and bid fair to continue changing. We have stopped riding the tiger.

[arnaudherve]

I would argue that it is more important for Ireland in these difficult times to strive towards energetic independence than to sign the LT.