No takes ireland back to british commonwealth - John Palmer

[eurosceptic]

Continuing the theme of no means out john palmer rattles the sabre in this piece.
The article typically attempts to link unrelated items such as tackling the credit crunch to lisbon, despite the fact that the European Community within the EU already has the capacity to act collectively.
Similarly climate change is raised while neglecting to mention the EU already has competence in this area. Regional conflicts (i presume to be georgia), despite the fact that if there is unanimious agreement joint action can happen anyway. Mysterious and unspecified "geopolitics" and apparently dealing with a change of US president requires lisbon.
Recycling the usual dismissal of no concerns he goes on to perpetuate the myth that we can be pushed aside and threatens us with a new british domination back in the commonwealth.

Ireland, the Lisbon treaty, and Europe?s future | open Democracy News Analysis

He also confirms the temporary nature of the commissioner promise.

[droghedasouth]

'MY ONLY counsel to Ireland is that in order to become deeply Irish, she must become European."
- Tom Kettle, 1910.

Kettle's apparently paradoxical advice goes to the heart of Ireland's troubled relationship with the EU. Our debates on Lisbon and Nice have been underpinned by the simple assumptions that, as we become more European, we must inevitably, progressively lose our Irish identity; or that, as we increasingly engage with our partners and share decisions with them, we inevitably dilute our "national" sovereignty.

It is the logic of the zero-sum game that denies the real truth about the EU, that the whole can be, is, greater than the sum of its parts, that in combining with others we create new possibilities of sovereignty, real new abilities to shape the course of events that are continental in scope.

Taken from todays IT.
I know I am wasting my time, but it is an elegant exposition of the case.
Retreat from Europe causes us to become more influenced by Britain.
That is the choice.
There is no third way.
The choice is being close to Berlin/Brussels or Birmingham/Balham.
Boston doesnt even get a look in.

[PhoenixIreland]

Taken from todays IT.
I know I am wasting my time, but it is an elegant exposition of the case.
Retreat from Europe causes us to become more influenced by Britain.
That is the choice.
There is no third way.
The choice is being close to Berlin/Brussels or Birmingham/Balham.
Boston doesnt even get a look in.

Why would rejecting a treaty mean retreat from Europe?

[FutureTaoiseach]

I'm not buying what John Palmer is saying. Is Switzerland part of the 'British orbit'? The reality is that we have only done what the French and Dutch people did and what most Europeans would do if given a direct say on the EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty. What will happen if we vote no again? The world will go on as before. The Nice Treaty does allow for Enhanced Cooperation whereby a minority of 7+ member states may integrate more deeply among themselves than the rest - presumably the inspiration for JP's prophesies of a 'periphery' including Ireland if there was a second no vote. But hold on a moment - isn't there already a multispeed Europe? Denmark, Sweden, the UK and most Eastern European states are outside of the Euro, while Ireland is in the Euro but with an optout from the Schengen agreement. I don't see what the problem is with a multispeed Europe, provided it's not something like CCCTB that might force companies based here to pay destination-taxes. However I feel the latter is more likely to happen with Lisbon than without, in part because to activate E.C. you need both the consent of the Commission and a qualified-majority on the Council of Ministers. Now if a Commission only had Ireland on it 2/3rds of the time, we would have no voice in the Commission's discussions on whether to grant a request to allow E.C., and the new form of QMV in my opinion would make it more like that the Council of Ministers would pass E.C. than now, due to the reduction in the voting-strength of small states like Ireland that would make it easier to impose provisions harmful to low-tax economies like Ireland. I do agree with one thing Palmer says though: the awareness that the Tories are likely to form the next UK govt in 2010 will help the no side here, in terms of reducing the perception of political-isolation the elites want to foment.

[JCSkinner]

It's the spin that just keeps on spinning, isn't it?
Never mind the fact that the rest of Europe (apart from the political class) don't want this treaty either.
Somehow we will be ostracised by our neighbours and kicked out of the EU for rejecting a single treaty.
It's arrant nonsense, and it's important that people keep highlighting this lie.
I'm fed up with the Boston/Berlin nonsense too. It's important for Ireland to stay on good terms with America at this time, since our economies are so entwined. And we play a very good role as the EU's intermediary with America, what with Bruton as ambassador and so on.
It's certainly not Boston or Berlin. And it's definitely not Birmingham or Berlin either.
Why can't we look to Ballina or Belfast instead? Ireland need be in no one's sphere of interest but our own, and yet still foster good relations with all.

[Respvblica]

I'm not buying what John Palmer is saying. Is Switzerland part of the 'British orbit'?

But switzerland has three balancing forces(french/german/italian), so it would be unlikely for them to be drawn sigularly into the orbit of Germany only, the way that we would to the UK.

[Destiny's Soldier]

A new world order | open Democracy News Analysis

Something elese on that scary website:


"The financial crisis afflicting much of the world is part of more fundamental shifts in the world's economic power-balance. It is time for a new model of global governance that recognises the reality of current trends - starting with the creation of a Global Strategic Council, says Krzysztof Rybinski."




The NWO is more than just a conspiracy theory.

[Twin Towers]

'MY ONLY counsel to Ireland is that in order to become deeply Irish, she must become European."
- Tom Kettle, 1910.

Kettle was a clown anyway, speaking at some 200 recruitment meetings in Ireland to encourage enlistment with the British Army sending countless of his countrymen to stupid deaths before getting himself shot at the Somme.

[droghedasouth]

Why would rejecting a treaty mean retreat from Europe?

The idea that we can stay where we were pre-Lisbon with no change to our relationship with our 26 disappointed partners is childish.

Even a 6 year old understands that there are consequences if you are a party pooper.

[droghedasouth]

It's the spin that just keeps on spinning, isn't it?
Never mind the fact that the rest of Europe (apart from the political class) don't want this treaty either.
Somehow we will be ostracised by our neighbours and kicked out of the EU for rejecting a single treaty.
It's arrant nonsense, and it's important that people keep highlighting this lie.
I'm fed up with the Boston/Berlin nonsense too. It's important for Ireland to stay on good terms with America at this time, since our economies are so entwined. And we play a very good role as the EU's intermediary with America, what with Bruton as ambassador and so on.
It's certainly not Boston or Berlin. And it's definitely not Birmingham or Berlin either.
Why can't we look to Ballina or Belfast instead? Ireland need be in no one's sphere of interest but our own, and yet still foster good relations with all.

Splendid isolation or introspection.

So we should transfer to Rockall.
Being shat upon by the seagulls.