Czechs will not ratify Lisbon prior to any 2nd Irish vote: Sunday Times

[ibis]

Bem is one of the most popular politicians in the country and as such it is reasonable to assume the Czech people prefer a Klausite perspective on the Treaty.

Nah - by that logic the French would have preferred a Sarkozite view of the Treaty, and you know you don't believe that.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Nah - by that logic the French would have preferred a Sarkozite view of the Treaty, and you know you don't believe that.

Even Sarkozy doesn't have a Sarkozite view of the Treaty, having promised a "mini-treaty" in his election campaign, before coming back with a Treaty 2,000 words longer than the rejected EU Constitution.

4. International treaties if not given constitutional status require the approval of both houses. If the Senate says no, the Chamber can overrule it by an absolute majority vote.

So no, Klaus can not stop a law on a constitutional matter being passed. He can only stop a normal bill for 15 days before the Chamber revotes, and the Senate has no role in the event of a revote. Oh and there is considerably more than an absolute majority in the Chamber behind the treaty, so even if Klaus had the legal authority to block that sort of bill (which is doubtful) it would be blocked for a total of 15 days at most. And even if the enactment is not a constitutional law, and is voted on purely as a treaty (which is not normally the case as EU treaties require constitutional amendments), the treaty cannot be blocked longterm by the Senate (if it tried the bill is automatically deemed to have passed anyway), and if the Senate rejects it an absolute majority in the Chamber can over-rule the rejection.

Sorry to rain on the Eurosceptic parade.

It has to get past the Czech Constitutional Court and it is debatable whether or not it will. Remember the govt here did not expect the Crotty Judgement in 1987. I'm pinning most of my hopes on the Court, and after than on the president vetoing the Treaty and an unwillingness among the ODS leadership to take him on over it, and after than on a change of leadership of the ODS - which is quite possible following their drubbing at the polls in the Senate elections.

[hiding behind a poster]

And our own vote etc concerning our own parliament etc..........

What's your point?

[hiding behind a poster]

[quote=FutureTaoiseach;1282045]

The people of Europe are opposed to a European superstate

As are their governments. That's why there are no plans for a European superstate.

and the politicians are attempting a coup against democracy by defying democratically-expressed no votes.

And yet when someone who is, by YOUR standards, a non-elected "faceless bureaucrat" plans to torpedo the democratic vote of a sovereign parliament if he doesn't like it, you laud him as a hero. Ever considered how much of a hypocrite that makes you?

[Supermanpolitician]

If we had a Europe wide referendum that would be the easiest way. But we can't have a Europe wide referendum under the current rules. So ironically to have a truly democratic EU, we would need reform on the institutions and processes. No if only we had an opportunity to vote on reform eh?

[hiding behind a poster]

The real irony is some politicians saying it's popular with the Czech people and then not granting them a referendum to confirm that this is indeed the case.

Why, where does it say in the Czech constitution that there should be referenda on European treaties? Where do you stop? Do you have referenda on everything? And needless to say, if some Czech or other claimed Ireland should ratify Lisbon via parliament, you'd leap up and pontificate about foreigners interfering in Ireland's sovereign democracy - while in the same breath claiming the right to tell the Czechs how THEY should handle THEIR democratic affairs.

Hypocrite.

[hiding behind a poster]

Bem is one of the most popular politicians in the country and as such it is reasonable to assume the Czech people prefer a Klausite perspective on the Treaty.

Eamon Gilmore is apparently one of the most popular politicians in the country, as such its reasonable to assume the Irish people prefer Labour's perspective on the Treaty - namely, that they support it.

That's your logic, anyway.

[hiding behind a poster]

I'm pinning most of my hopes on the Court, and after than on the president vetoing the Treaty and an unwillingness among the ODS leadership to take him on over it, and after than on a change of leadership of the ODS - which is quite possible following their drubbing at the polls in the Senate elections.

So, about as plausible as the McCain victory scenario you were pinning your hopes on, then.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Why, where does it say in the Czech constitution that there should be referenda on European treaties? Where do you stop? Do you have referenda on everything? And needless to say, if some Czech or other claimed Ireland should ratify Lisbon via parliament, you'd leap up and pontificate about foreigners interfering in Ireland's sovereign democracy - while in the same breath claiming the right to tell the Czechs how THEY should handle THEIR democratic affairs.

Hypocrite.

Once you give away sovereignty to supranational institutions, it becomes almost impossible to take it back. Unlike you, I believe that there is an interdependence in how ratification of an EU treaty affects the others, which by definition means it isn't a mere internal affair of any one state alone. To say otherwise makes as much sense as claiming the signing of the Munich agreement by the UK, Italy and Germany was no business of Czechoslovakia. That which impinges on the sovereignty of a state is always a legitimate concern of that member state, and the actual handing of executive and legislative power to EU institutions is an infinitely greater erosion of national sovereignty than the mere expression of opinion by a foreign leader.

[myksav]

It's a No argument - that "the EU" was going to try and isolate us so we'd say yes. Since that's not actually happening, it's being repackaged as a victory for the No side. If the Czech Parliament overrules their turbulent President, then we will swing back to it being a bullyboy attempt to isolate us.

What's deliciously ironic, of course, is that Klaus, who was not popularly elected, apparently intends to oppose the elected Parliament by not ratifying Lisbon, in a country where Lisbon is popular with the voter. Watching the Irish No side cheering him on in the name of "democracy" is good value.

Even more ironic is who it was claimed that the No side were 'interfering' with other States method of government when there was calls from some No people for referenda throughout the EU, yet now when they are being castigated for respecting the governmental methods of other EU States.

Ah, politics.