How is the Lisbon Treaty repugnant to the Constitution?

[corelli]

The Crotty judgement said that sovereignty comes from the people and therefore the people must consent for any transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.

The Crotty judgement says no such thing.

It says the cooperation in the area of Foreign Affairs was not forseen in our joining the EU in 1973 and that this question must be put to the people. It also says that extensions of QMV were forseen by our membership and are not repugnant by virtue of Article 29.4.10.

If the OIreachtas had ratified and the decision and it was challenged in the SC, Crotty would have been used by the State to defend the ratification by the Oireachtas.

You seem to be well versed in the legal details of all this. Out of interest, how much of the Lisbon Treaty could simply be passed through the Dail without a referendum being required?

Spot on. All crotty stated was that any future substantial ( as opposed to merely technical or procedural) change in the treaties governing our relationship, and not invisaged in the original text, must be put to the people in referendum. There is an argument that this particular referendum may not have been required, given the Crotty judgement, but that is debatable. Perhaps the Governments solution would be to attempt to pass Lisbon by act of the Oireachtas and wait for the outcome of the inevitable judicial review proceedings. It could also be the case that the AG has advised that that is not a legally sound position to take.

[FutureTaoiseach]

If they tried to push it through the Dail and then lost a Supreme Court challenge to this it would be a disasterous start to a referendum campaign.

[drbob1972]

i'm just wondering how much if not all of the Lisbon treaties individual elements could be dealt with either via bi-lateral agreements with the other countries in the EU, it would be cumbersome and complex but would it be possible for most / all of the individual elements, or at least the ones that really matter ?

[goosebump]

The Crotty judgement said that sovereignty comes from the people and therefore the people must consent for any transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.

The Crotty judgement says no such thing.

It says the cooperation in the area of Foreign Affairs was not forseen in our joining the EU in 1973 and that this question must be put to the people. It also says that extensions of QMV were forseen by our membership and are not repugnant by virtue of Article 29.4.10.

If the OIreachtas had ratified and the decision and it was challenged in the SC, Crotty would have been used by the State to defend the ratification by the Oireachtas.

You seem to be well versed in the legal details of all this. Out of interest, how much of the Lisbon Treaty could simply be passed through the Dail without a referendum being required?

He seems to be but he is not.

Until he was told otherwise here a couple of days ago, goosebump was full sure that the Lisbon treaty did not give any new competences to the EU. He said so repeatedly until I put him straight. I am glad to see from his next post that he has now caught up with us on this. He has a way to go on the Crotty case though but he will get there in the end

I acknowledge the point about competences.

What have I said about Crotty that you disagree with?

[Oblivion]

i'm just wondering how much if not all of the Lisbon treaties individual elements could be dealt with either via bi-lateral agreements with the other countries in the EU, it would be cumbersome and complex but would it be possible for most / all of the individual elements, or at least the ones that really matter ?

Don't you people have any shame? Don't you understand that the Irish people have ALREADY made their decision on Lisbon - and rejected it?

The attitude displayed by the 'Yes' morons like yourself, has gone from amusing naivety, to irritating smugness, to a downright disturbing hatred for the democratic process.

Perhaps, if you want to show even greater contempt for Irish voters, you might like to walk outside onto the street and spit on people's faces?

[solair]

I'm not suggesting that it should be put through the Oireachtas, I was just wondering what the specific issues are that require it to go to referendum.

As I said, it's just out of legal/academic interest that I posed the question.