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Thread: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

  1. #1
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    A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    One aspect of the Lisbon Treaty which has been neglected is the formation of a new legal entity - for all purposes a Federal State

    - called the EU.

    This EU's laws have primacy over those of nation states in areas where they overlap or conflict on matters in which the EU has competence.
    It gives a huge amount of power to EU institutions but makes them less accountable.
    This is not a good deal for Ireland.
    For benefit of Irish and European democracy vote NO.


    In 2005 the people of France and the Netherlands voted against the EU Constitution. It was a serious blow to the European politicians and bureaucrats who had devised and promoted the new Constitution. It also taught them a valuable lesson: that while voters were prepared to support an economic union, they balked at the very obvious creation of a United States of Europe, complete with a President,an anthem and a flag.

    So the politicians and high-ranking civil servants went back to the drawing board and came up with the Treaty of Lisbon. According to themselves it retained all of the important features of the EU Constitution, but it could now be simply passed off as a Treaty. That clever move meant that the French, the Dutch, the English and all the other voters across the EU except the Irish were no longer entitled to vote on it.

    So is it a Constitution or a Treaty?

    Here's what Bertie Ahern said:

    "Thankfully they haven't changed the substance (of the Constitution);90 per cent of it is still there."
    An Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, Irish Independent, 24 June 2007

    And Minister Dermot Ahern agreed.

    "The substance of what was agreed in 2004 has been retained. What is gone is the term 'constitution' ".
    Dermot Ahern, Irish Foreign Minister, Daily Mail Ireland, 25 June 2007

    And they're telling the truth this time! Here's how the Treaty retained the most important facets of the EU Constitution.
    The Treaty of Lisbon would establish a new European Union with a new legal and constitutional form - just as the EU Constitution intended to.

    It does not simply reform what went before - it creates, for the first time, a European Federation.

    The Lisbon Treaty would bring about this constitutional  revolution by amending the two existing European Treaties, the Treaty on European Union (TEU) and the Treaty Establishing the European Community (TEC). The former would retain its name, while the latter would be renamed the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU).

    These two amended Treaties would then become the de facto Constitution of the new European Union.

    Like the EU Constitution, the Lisbon Treaty makes EU law superior to the Constitutions and laws of the member states.

    Member States would retain their national constitutions, but these would be subordinate to the new Union Constitution. The Treaty clearly declares that EU law is superior to Irish law and the Irish Constitution in Declaration 17 concerning Primacy.

    This has not been stated in a European Treaty before.

    The Declaration is reinforced in the 28th Amendment to the Constitution Bill published by the Irish government, which is what people will be voting on in June.

    This Constitutional Amendment would permit Ireland to join the new European Union which Lisbon would set up. And it then states:

    "No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by membership of the European Union, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section, from having the force of law in the State." (our emphasis added)

    The Treaty would empower the new European Union to act as a State, just as the EU Constitution intended.
    To understand the change that would be introduced by the Lisbon Treaty one needs to appreciate that what we call the European Union today is not a State. It is not even a legal or corporate entity in its own right, for it does not have legal personality.  The name "European Union" at present is the descriptive legal term for the totality of relations between its 27 Member States and their peoples.

    The Lisbon Treaty would change this situation fundamentally by creating a constitutionally and legally quite new EU, while retaining the same name, the "European Union".   Unlike the present European Union, this constitutionally new EU would be separate from and superior to its Member States, just as the USA is separate from and superior to Massachussetts or Kansas, or as FederalGermany is to Bavaria or Bremen.

    This new European Union could sign treaties with other States in all areas of its powers and conduct itself as a State in the international community of States. It would speak at the United Nations on agreed foreign policy positions; just as in the days of the Soviet Union the USSR had a UN seat while Russia, Ukraine and Byelorussia had UN seats also.  Member States would be obliged to support the Union's foreign and security policy "actively and unreservedly in a spirit of loyalty and solidarity". 

    The word "loyalty" clearly demonstrates the constitutional relations involved.

    The new Union would make the majority of laws for its Member States each year. Under the Lisbon Treaty it would get further power to make laws by qualified majority voting in relation to over 30 new policy areas. It would furthermore be given new power to take decisions in relation to as many specific issues. There would be some 68 areas or issues in all  where individual Member States decide matters now and where under Lisbon they would lose their veto or their  right to decide. 

    Like the EU Constitution, the Treaty would make us all real citizens of this new European Union.
    One can only be a citizen of a State, and all States must have citizens.   Citizenship of the European Union at present is stated to "complement" national citizenship - in other words it's mostly notional.

    However, the Lisbon Treaty would simultaneously transform the meaning of Union citizenship.  The Treaty would replace the word "complement" in the sentence "Citizenship of the Union shall complement national citizenship",so that the new sentence would read: "Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship." This would make us real citizens of a real EU on top of our national citizenship for the first time.

    The rights and duties attaching to this citizenship of the new Union would be superior to those attaching to citizenship of one's own national State in any case of conflict between the two, because of the superiority of EU law over national law and constitutions.As most States recognise that one can only have a single citizenship internationally, it is likely that over time one's EU citizenship would tend to be regarded by other countries as one's primary and internationally definitive citizenship.

    Under the Lisbon Treaty - as with the EU Constitution - the EU has a full legal personality and can enter contractual relationships with other states.

    Lisbon would establish a European Union with full legal personality and a fully independent corporate existence in all Union areas for the first time, so that the post-Lisbon Union can function as a State vis-a-vis  other States and in relation to its own citizens(Art. 47 TEU, cf. Art.281 TEC).

    This means that the EU can make treaties and enter negotiations with other states.
    This new EU would take over as well the "intergovernmental" powers over foreign policy and security, as well as crime, justice and home affairs, which at present are outside the scope of European law, leaving only aspects  of  the Common Foreign, Security and Defence Policy outside the scope of its supranational power(Title 5, Art.24, amended TEU)

    As envisaged by the EU Constitution the Lisbon Treaty would create a Union Parliament for the Union's new citizens:
     
    The Lisbon Treaty would make Members of the European Parliament, who at present are "representatives of the peoples of the Member States", into "representatives of the Union's citizens" (Art.14(2), amended TEU; cf. current Art.189 TEC).   This illustrates the constitutional shift which the Treaty would make from the present European Union of national States and peoples to the new Federal Union of European citizens.

    As envisaged by the EU Constitution, Lisbon would create a political Government of the new Union: 
    The Lisbon Treaty would turn the European Council of Prime Ministers and Presidents  into an "institution" of the new Union (Art.13, amended TEU), so that its acts or its "failing to act" would, like all other Union institutions, be subject to legal review by the EU Court of Justice(Arts.263-265, TFEU)

    Legally speaking, these summit meetings of the European Council would no longer be "intergovernmental" gatherings of Prime Ministers and Presidents outside supranational European structures. As part of the new EU´s institutional framework, the Prime Ministers and Presidents would instead be constitutionally required to "promote the Union's values, advance its objectives, serve its interests" and "ensure the consistency, effectiveness and continuity of its policies and actions" (Art. 13(1), amended TEU).  They would also "define the general political direction and priorities thereof" (Art.15(1),amended TEU).

    As an Institution of the new Union, the European Council of Prime Ministers and Presidents would, for example, be in principle open to direction from the European Court of Justice  to take steps to harmonise company taxes that constituted a "distortion of competition", something which at present requires unanimity, if they were slow or reluctant to do this(Art.113 TFEU), or if they failed to take steps to ensure that the new Union's "own resources" were adequate to meet its objectives(Art.311 TFEU).

    The European Council would thus become in effect the Cabinet Government of the new Federal EU, and its individual members would be primarily obliged to represent the Union to their Member States rather than their Member States to the Union.

    Lisbon would create a new Union political President - something also envisaged by the EU Constitution.

    The Treaty proposes to give the European Council a permanent political President for up to five years - two and a half years renewable once (Art.15(5), amended TEU).

    There is no gathering of Heads of State or Government in any other international context which maintains the same chairman or president for several years, while individual national Prime Ministers and Presidents come and go.

    It is part of the federalist evolution of the Union that the President of the European Council becomes no longer a rotating Head of Government, but a permanent EU official.  If the President plays this role effectively - including setting the agenda for legislation and representing the EU on the international stage - he or she is bound to assume increasing status and importance.

    As in a Constitution, Lisbon would give the new Union self-empowerment powers:

    These are shown by:

    (a) the enlarged scope of the Flexibility Clause (Art.352,TFEU), whereby if  the Treaty does not provide the necessary powers to enable the new Union attain its very wide objectives, the Council may take appropriate measures by unanimity.  The Lisbon Treaty would extend this provision from the area of operation of the common market to all of the new Union's policies directed at attaining its much wider post-Lisbon objectives. The Flexibility Clause has been widely used to extend EU law-making over the years;

    (b) the proposed  Simplified Treaty Revision Procedure (Art.48, amended TEU), which would permit the Prime Ministers and Presidents on the European Council unanimously to shift Union decision-taking from unanimity to qualified majority voting in the Treaty on the Functioning of the Union where population size would become the decisive criterion in European  law-making;  and

    (c)  the several "passerelles" or "ratchet-clauses", which would allow the European Council to switch from unanimity to majority voting in certain specified areas, such as  judicial cooperation in civil matters (Art.81(3)TFEU), in criminal matters(Art.83(1)TFEU), in relation to the EU Public Prosecutor(Art.86(4) TFEU) and the Multiannual financial framework (Art.312(2) TFEU).

    The Treaty of Lisbon is an attempt to construct a highly centralised European Federation, from the top down, out of Europe's many nations, peoples and States, without their free consent and knowledge.

    It retains 95% of the changes envisaged by the EU Constitution, and the brazen attempt to downplay these changes by re-naming the Constitution a Treaty shows a deep disregard for democracy and a disrespect for the voters of each and every EU member state.

    The answer to the question asked at the beginning of this article is this: Lisbon is a Constitution re-jigged, renamed and remarketed as a Treaty.

    With thanks to the National Platform EU Research and Information Centre.

  2. #2
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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    See http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=36097

    Also, do you ever wonder that your posting style actually loses support for the "No" cause?

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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    This is the first time that the people of Ireland will be asked to consent to a EUropean Treaty which states the primacy of EU law over Irish Law.
    So the post you linked to is irrelevant.

    The words of the proposed Constitutional amendment, show that an new EU is formed by the Lisbon Treaty and we shall be citzens for the first time of this entity.

    It Lisbon is passed it will create a new legal entity called the European Union with its own foreign minister, its own embassies, its own seat at the UN and more power in a vast range of new policy areas effecting the daily lives of its new ‘EU citizens.’

    Article 52 of this Charter of Fundamental Rights states that the rights conferred by it can be ‘limited’ to meet “objectives of general interest recognised by the Union."

    I am happy to be part of an common market but I have now interest in being part of a politically united EU state, do you?

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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    Most people that I know would always have considered the EU (and it's predecessors) as an entity of which we were a member country and that they were both Irish and European. The legalities of this are now being put in place.

    The laws of Ireland and the laws of all member countries must be subject (apart from where protocols or other opt outs have been agreed) to EU legislation - otherwise there would be no sense to being a part of the EU.

    The argument you outline is valid but only so in the context of not wanting Ireland to participate as a full member of the EU. I don't dispute the validity of the argument - I just don't agree with it and believe that most people in Ireland don't agree with it either.

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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    That is fine. I accept that there are a number of EU federalists or even, in an extreme form, EU nationalists out there who
    are gungho in favour of a politically united EU.

    I am happy with the EU as a nexus for economic trade and free cooperation among EU nations on matters of common interest.

    However, I am opposed to what shall be created by the Lisbon Treaty.
    Do I take it that you accept what I am saying about new legal entity that Lisbon forms, just that you agree with its formation.

    For me, I believe a politically united or progressively united state - can only combust longterm - ala Yugoslavia and USSR.
    Squeezing culturally disparate peoples into a single political straighjacket does not work.

    The New EU formed by Lisbon is flying in the face of history.
    To ensure the longterm health of the EU, we need to slow things down and concentrate on making the institutions more accountable to the people and make the people feel part of this project.

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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by brio910
    To ensure the longterm health of the EU, we need to slow things down and concentrate on making the institutions more accountable to the people and make the people feel part of this project.
    But then the already (too) powerful couldn't go on another big power binge trying further to undermine national sovereignty as they go, which is their poorly concealed goal in the first place after all.
    "Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly ...."
    - V.Giscard D'Estaing, 14 June 2007

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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    What in gods name is wrong with the EU as a political entity? I for one think it's a great deal to have both the Irish state and all of europe looking out for my interests on a world stage. The EU and Ireland has a lot more weight to bring to bear than Ireland.

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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    Its the unified or progressively unified political entity -

    ie A federal state - an accountable bureaucratic nightmare to which I am opposed.

    And the main reason I am voting NO.

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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Brio910
    The words of the proposed Constitutional amendment, show that an new EU is formed by the Lisbon Treaty and we shall be citzens for the first time of this entity.
    I don't agree. Lisbon does not create the EU as a new legal entity, nor does it confer citizenship of that entity for the first time. Those things have been done before. See Article 9 of The Treaty on European Union (consolidated):
    Quote Originally Posted by Article 9, The Treaty on European Union (consolidated)
    In all its activities, the Union shall observe the principle of the equality of its citizens, who shall receive equal attention from its institutions, bodies, offices and agencies. Every national of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship and shall not replace it.
    Quote Originally Posted by brio910
    This is the first time that the people of Ireland will be asked to consent to a EUropean Treaty which states the primacy of EU law over Irish Law.
    So the post you linked to is irrelevant.
    Hang on. You made this claim, in your first post on this thread: This EU's laws have primacy over those of nation states in areas where they overlap or conflict on matters in which the EU has competence. It gives a huge amount of power to EU institutions but makes them less accountable. This is not a good deal for Ireland. For benefit of Irish and European democracy vote NO. You went on to quote a claim that Lisbon INTRODUCES primacy of EU law.
    I was responding to that claim by linking to the proof that the situation you warn against ALREADY EXISTS. See here for a fuller explanation: http://www.iiea.com/images/managed/p...ts/3_Regan.pdf

    You may object to that situation currently in existence. If so, you should be upfront about it, rather than claiming that primacy of EU law is something brand new, and only to be brought about through Lisbon. Sure, Lisbon endorses the principle of EU law having primacy, and if you oppose that principle you should oppose Lisbon. But it's wrong to think that Thursday's vote will make any change to that principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by brio910
    I am happy to be part of an common market but I have now interest in being part of a politically united EU state, do you?
    Well, I think I have a decent understanding of what the Lisbon Treaty actually says and what changes it makes. Whether or not it makes the EU a "politically united EU state", I don't know since that's an undefined description. Do I think the Treaty goes too far towards a "United States of Europe"? On balance, no.

    What does interest me a lot is how many opponents of the Lisbon Treaty are actually opponents of the EU as it already exists, but either don't realise it or choose not to openly say so. Complaints about primacy of EU law, fears of how citizenship in a political union brings the EU away from a collection of member states towards a 'superstate': Lisbon does next to nothing to change the existing position.

    So what's the story with you, brio? Did you not realise that Lisbon does so little in these areas or does it suit you to pretend that it does?

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    Re: A constitutional revolution -undermining Irish democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Libero
    Quote Originally Posted by Brio910
    The words of the proposed Constitutional amendment, show that an new EU is formed by the Lisbon Treaty and we shall be citzens for the first time of this entity.
    I don't agree. Lisbon does not create the EU as a new legal entity, .......
    Ahem. If proof is needed first read the constitutional amendment you are be asked to vote on.

    And which, by the way, will not be on your ballot paper:

    “ The State may ratify the Treaty of Lisbon signed at Lisbon on the 13th day of December 2007, and may be a member of

    the European Union established by virtue of that Treaty. .........."





    Article by Anthony Coughlan, Irish Times May 16, 2008 - snippet:

    From the inside the Union would look like something based on Treaties between States. From the outside it would look like a State itself. This constitutional revolution in both the Union ands its Member States would be brought about by four legal steps which are set out in the Treaty, as they were in the previous EU Constitution:

    Firstly, Lisbon would give the post-Lisbon Union full legal personality separate from and superior to its Member States, so that it could act as a State in the international community of States, sign Treaties with other States in all areas of its powers, have its own political President, Foreign Minister(High Representative), diplomatic service, embassies and Public Prosecutor, and make most of our laws.
    Secondly, Lisbon would abolish the European Community which we joined in 1973 and which still exists as part of the present EU, and replace it by the new Union (Art.1 TEU).


    Thirdly, it would give the new Union a unified constitutional stucture so that all areas of government would come within its aegis either actually or potentially(Art.4 TEU, Arts.1-6 TFEU). The only major feature of a fully developed Federation which the EU would then lack would be the power to force its Member States to go to war against their will.

    SUBORDINATING THE IRISH CONSTITUTION TO THE EU CONSTITUTION

    Finally, Lisbon would make us all real citizens for the first time of this post-Lisbon Union, rather than our being notional or honorary EU “citizens” as at present(Art.9 TEU).

    One can only be a citizen of a State and all States must have citizens. As real EU citizens we would owe it the duty of obedience to its laws and loyalty to its authority over and above our obedience and loyalty to Ireland and the Irish Constitution and laws.
    We would still retain our national Irish citizenship, but our new dual citizenship post-Lisbon would not be citizenship of two different States, but rather of the federal and regional/provincial levels of one state, as is normal in such classical Federations as the USA, Federal Germany, Switzerland and Canada.

    The Irish Constitution would remain - just as the various states of the Federal USA still retain their constitutions - but it would be subordinate to the EU Constitution in any case of conflict between the two.

    One indicator of the constitutional change which Lisbon would bring about is that Members of the European Parliament, who under the present Treaties are “representatives of the peoples of the Member States brought together in the Community”, would become “representatives ofthe Union’s citizens“ in the post-Lisbon EU(Art.14.2 TEU).

    Another is that the European Council, the summit meetings of Prime Ministers and Presidents, would become an EU institution for the first time, legally bound to forward the interests of the Union, not of the national Governments or electorates concerned, so that its acts or its failing to act would be subject to judicial review by the EU Court of Justice(Art.13 TEU).

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