Lisbon is a proxy vote on Turkish accession - vote NO

[brio910]

All the EU states voted to open accession talks with Turkey.

Austria wanted to veto the talks but was threatened and bullied into assenting by strong arm tactics from others.

The majority of peoples are against Turkish accession. The EU political elites are for it.

Ruiri Quinn, Labour TD said at the Lisbon debate at Google (on RTE website) that Lisbon is necessary for further enlargement.

Taking his word on it so, Lisbon must be passed to allow Turkish accession.

Ergo, after much serious thought and a lot of reading, I've decided to vote no this time.

[CelticAtheist]

Not another No red herring. The treaty changes nothing about Turkish accession. Any more lies you guys can think up while you are at it?

It removes the member limit from Nice.
Not exactly a proxy for Turkish membership, but definitely favourable towards that end.

Still, as I've said, there's plenty of valid reasons to reject them.

There is no membership limit in Nice.

Does Nice mention a number or does it not ?

We are aware that new states may join on the basis of accession treaties.

Nice limits the number of states to 27.
It does this by limiting the number of commissioners to 27.
As each state under current rules needs a commissioner, it's impossible for new countries to ascend without a new treaty expanding the Commissioner numbers or changing their rules.

As Lisbon brings in a rotation system into the Commission, this problem becomes irrelevent..

[DeGaulle]

Not another No red herring. The treaty changes nothing about Turkish accession. Any more lies you guys can think up while you are at it?

It removes the member limit from Nice.
Not exactly a proxy for Turkish membership, but definitely favourable towards that end.

Still, as I've said, there's plenty of valid reasons to reject them.

There is no membership limit in Nice.

Does Nice mention a number or does it not ?

We are aware that new states may join on the basis of accession treaties.

Nice limits the number of states to 27.
It does this by limiting the number of commissioners to 27.
As each state under current rules needs a commissioner, it's impossible for new countries to ascend without a new treaty expanding the Commissioner numbers or changing their rules.

As Lisbon brings in a rotation system into the Commission, this problem becomes irrelevent..

Nice brought in the rotation system. There will be less than 27 commissioners in the next commission if Lisbon fails. All the "Keep our commissioner vote no" posters are completely dishonest.

[Trampas]

There is no membership limit in Nice.

Well Ibis. Is there a number in Nice or not ? What is keeping you ?

[brio910]

The reasons I object to Turkish accession, which Lisbon facilitates is that:

1. Its economic effect

The EU budget is overstretched. The accession of Turkey's-71million people- would place too great a financial burden on member states.
The CAP payments scheme would collapse across western Europe.

2. The Cultural effect
These people have failed to integrate wherever they have gone. They have a disdainful attitude towards Christian democratic cultures.
A very thin attachment to democracy, and flimsy appreciation of human rights.
The Turkish state needs to clean up its act.

Are there any other reasons why Turkish accession is bad or why is should not happen.

[myksav]

[quote=DeGaulle]

Not another No red herring. The treaty changes nothing about Turkish accession. Any more lies you guys can think up while you are at it?

It removes the member limit from Nice.
Not exactly a proxy for Turkish membership, but definitely favourable towards that end.

Still, as I've said, there's plenty of valid reasons to reject them.

There is no membership limit in Nice.

Does Nice mention a number or does it not ?

We are aware that new states may join on the basis of accession treaties.

Nice limits the number of states to 27.
It does this by limiting the number of commissioners to 27.
As each state under current rules needs a commissioner, it's impossible for new countries to ascend without a new treaty expanding the Commissioner numbers or changing their rules.

As Lisbon brings in a rotation system into the Commission, this problem becomes irrelevent..

Nice brought in the rotation system. There will be less than 27 commissioners in the next commission if Lisbon fails. All the "Keep our commissioner vote no" posters are completely dishonest.[/quote:1g81lmsh]


Less than 27 is 26. And to reduce the numbers of Commissioners, there must be unanimity. Ok, who's willing to give up their Commissioner? Ahem.
The Lisbon Treaty doesn't reduce the numbers of Commissioners, it slashes it.

[CelticAtheist]

Nice brought in the rotation system. There will be less than 27 commissioners in the next commission if Lisbon fails. All the "Keep our commissioner vote no" posters are completely dishonest.

That's from big countries giving up their second commissioners.
And I mean a real rotation system with countries losing their only commissioner temporarily.

I probably should have used <27.

Are there any other reasons why Turkish accession is bad or why is should not happen.

I've addressed some of them in the Europe section thread.
I most point out that Lisbon only adds the possibility for Turkey, not a certainty.

[DeGaulle]

The reasons I object to Turkish accession, which Lisbon facilitates is that:

1. Its economic effect

The EU budget is overstretched. The accession of Turkey's-71million people- would place too great a financial burden on member states.
The CAP payments scheme would collapse across western Europe.

2. The Cultural effect
These people have failed to integrate wherever they have gone. They have a disdainful attitude towards Christian democratic cultures.
A very thin attachment to democracy, and flimsy appreciation of human rights.
The Turkish state needs to clean up its act.

Are there any other reasons why Turkish accession is bad or why is should not happen.

What do you think about Ukraine joining? (45 million people, but considerably poorer than Turkey).

[Solipsist]

Nice limits the number of commissioners at the level of one per country - it does not block enlargement.

Lisbon does make a change on enlargement as it proposes to put the present criteria for joining the EU into the governing Treaties. Certain conditions must be met before a new country can join the EU. These conditions were set by the European Council in 1993 and are known as the "Copenhagen Criteria". It is not proposed to change these conditions. It is proposed to refer to them in the governing Treaties. This means that they cannot be changed by the European Council and can be changed only by another change to the Treaties. The conditions are:

The country must have stable political institutions which guarantee the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
The country must have a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the EU;
The country must have the ability to take on the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.
The EU itself must be able to assimilate the new country and, at the same time, maintain the impetus of European integration

But still Brio Trampas et al dont let the truth get in the way of a good story

[CelticAtheist]

What do you think about Ukraine joining? (45 million people, but considerably poorer than Turkey).

Not a fan of that either.