Europe has a “Plan B” if Ireland rejects Lisbon Treaty

[myksav]

Forget plan B or C or what ever.
Ireland should get out of the EU altogether.
Look at the 3 countries that didnt join. Norway, Iceland and Switzerland, all with healthy per capita GDP's.
Ireland has given away her fisheries and sugar industry and gets nothing from off shore gas reserves.

Do what NORWAY did. Say NO WAY

It's too late to do what Norway,Iceland and Sweden did, we're tied into the European Union.
But yeah, 2 billion Euro per annum worth of fish is taken from our waters by non-Irish boats.

mike

[hibernia_free]

[quote=hibernia_free][quote=politicalnewbie][quote="hibernia_free":1ofomr6j][b]Europe is preparing a “Plan B” including concessions to Ireland if we vote NO [/b]
Kathy Sinnott MEP has verified proof that Europeans are already actively considering a Plan B in the event of an Irish rejection of the Lisbon Treaty on the 12th of June. The latest indication came from the French National Assembly Delegation President Mr. Pierre Lequiller. Mr Lequiller was hosting the German Bundestag European Affairs Committee visit to Paris on 15th May. In his welcoming remarks he stated that the Irish referendum remained an alarming question because of the uncertainty of its outcome. Speaking of the probability of a negative outcome of the referendum he went on to say "In this case, it would undoubtedly be necessary to ask for a new vote after the adoption of a certain number of amendments, as was done for the treaty of Nice." This despite Brian Cowen's assertion that there is no Plan B.

Kathy Sinnott says, "After discovering this document it became clear that we are being told there is no Plan B to pressure us into voting yes. This pressure is not just from our own political leaders, but also from the European leaders they bring over here to help them. This may feel like blackmail to some, but actually it feels more like the tactics of a used car salesman: if you don't buy this nicely polished one right now, it will be gone in the morning and you will be out of luck. What this revelation about Europe’s Plan B tells us is that a NO vote will be better for Ireland. They are already planning the concessions they will offer us, all we need do is vote NO to get them. I call on Brian Cowen to be honest with the voters and admit that the current treaty is not “the best deal” available to us."

Mr. Lequiller also let it slip that for the moment they would have to yield to Irish opposition to fiscal harmonisation and continue to hide their plans for European defence.
__________________________________________________ __________________

There you have it folks. Why won't people vote NO to this bad deal and get a better deal for Ireland. Why such a sellout? It is shameful. VOTE NO FOR A BETTER DEAL FOR IRELAND.[/quote]

Can she proove what she is saying.. if she can, can you please provide the links... Kathy Sinnot is on the no campaign so i believe she could be simply be exagerrating this so i will continue to vote yes because frankly she has lied on the palmplet she produced so i thing shes lying now[/quote]

I emailed her office for some supporting documents. In the meantime can you provide links showing how she has lied in the past? While we're waiting for that, here's a link to a video exposing the misleading statements of the Pro-Treaty politicians (incl. Msr. Cowen) during the Nice Treaty. They have not been held accountable for their misleading statements on how Ireland would not be overrun by immigrants thanks to the Nice Treaty II. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hDcCrBzN0&watch_response"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hDcCrB ... h_response[/url] How can these same liars be trusted today??[/quote:1ofomr6j]

Here's the link from Kathy Sinnott. http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/eu ... asp#P5_163 It is in French.

[ibis]

[quote=hibernia_free][quote="hibernia_free":euf0ynvf][quote=politicalnewbie][quote="hibernia_free":euf0ynvf][b]Europe is preparing a “Plan B” including concessions to Ireland if we vote NO [/b]
Kathy Sinnott MEP has verified proof that Europeans are already actively considering a Plan B in the event of an Irish rejection of the Lisbon Treaty on the 12th of June. The latest indication came from the French National Assembly Delegation President Mr. Pierre Lequiller. Mr Lequiller was hosting the German Bundestag European Affairs Committee visit to Paris on 15th May. In his welcoming remarks he stated that the Irish referendum remained an alarming question because of the uncertainty of its outcome. Speaking of the probability of a negative outcome of the referendum he went on to say "In this case, it would undoubtedly be necessary to ask for a new vote after the adoption of a certain number of amendments, as was done for the treaty of Nice." This despite Brian Cowen's assertion that there is no Plan B.

Kathy Sinnott says, "After discovering this document it became clear that we are being told there is no Plan B to pressure us into voting yes. This pressure is not just from our own political leaders, but also from the European leaders they bring over here to help them. This may feel like blackmail to some, but actually it feels more like the tactics of a used car salesman: if you don't buy this nicely polished one right now, it will be gone in the morning and you will be out of luck. What this revelation about Europe’s Plan B tells us is that a NO vote will be better for Ireland. They are already planning the concessions they will offer us, all we need do is vote NO to get them. I call on Brian Cowen to be honest with the voters and admit that the current treaty is not “the best deal” available to us."

Mr. Lequiller also let it slip that for the moment they would have to yield to Irish opposition to fiscal harmonisation and continue to hide their plans for European defence.
__________________________________________________ __________________

There you have it folks. Why won't people vote NO to this bad deal and get a better deal for Ireland. Why such a sellout? It is shameful. VOTE NO FOR A BETTER DEAL FOR IRELAND.[/quote]

Can she proove what she is saying.. if she can, can you please provide the links... Kathy Sinnot is on the no campaign so i believe she could be simply be exagerrating this so i will continue to vote yes because frankly she has lied on the palmplet she produced so i thing shes lying now[/quote]

I emailed her office for some supporting documents. In the meantime can you provide links showing how she has lied in the past? While we're waiting for that, here's a link to a video exposing the misleading statements of the Pro-Treaty politicians (incl. Msr. Cowen) during the Nice Treaty. They have not been held accountable for their misleading statements on how Ireland would not be overrun by immigrants thanks to the Nice Treaty II. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hDcCrBzN0&watch_response"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hDcCrB ... h_response[/url] How can these same liars be trusted today??[/quote:euf0ynvf]

Here's the link from Kathy Sinnott. http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/eu ... asp#P5_163 It is in French.[/quote:euf0ynvf]

Google translated version. That's not really a plan B, though - more a plan 1a.

[corkman2007]

So the opinions of some members of French and German parliamentary committees now represent the opinions of all 27 EU member-states and their governments?

[ibis]

So the opinions of some members of French and German parliamentary committees now represent the opinions of all 27 EU member-states and their governments?

Well, that has been the No side position all along. We virtually never see primary sources.

[R Paul]

Okay, just to let all you paranoid No campaigners in on the Plan. Plan C (since Lisbon is already Plan B) is as follows:

Take the Lisbon Treaty, remove all changes to EU competence, resulting in a new pure Administrative Treaty. The changes to EU competence get shoved into a new short (couple of pages) Competence Treaty.

The Administrative Treaty gets ratified by Parliamentary vote in the Oireachtas - No changes to EU competence means there is no need for a referendum.
The Competence Treaty gets put to referendum, where the actual changes in competence - namely, giving the EU and the Member States joint competence over Energy, Climate Change and Space Policy - are then up for discussion in a really exciting referendum

Happy now?

Okay - I did forget to mention Willie O'Dea will be put in charge of EU Space Policy as the new EU (Very) High Representative - ideally, the intention is he will be placed in a High-Earth Orbit armed with copies of CCCTB proposals to scare away any passing aliens

[dealmachtigeier]

[quote=hibernia_free][quote="hibernia_free":1r6anskm][quote=politicalnewbie][quote="hibernia_free":1r6anskm][b]Europe is preparing a “Plan B” including concessions to Ireland if we vote NO [/b]
Kathy Sinnott MEP has verified proof that Europeans are already actively considering a Plan B in the event of an Irish rejection of the Lisbon Treaty on the 12th of June. The latest indication came from the French National Assembly Delegation President Mr. Pierre Lequiller. Mr Lequiller was hosting the German Bundestag European Affairs Committee visit to Paris on 15th May. In his welcoming remarks he stated that the Irish referendum remained an alarming question because of the uncertainty of its outcome. Speaking of the probability of a negative outcome of the referendum he went on to say "In this case, it would undoubtedly be necessary to ask for a new vote after the adoption of a certain number of amendments, as was done for the treaty of Nice." This despite Brian Cowen's assertion that there is no Plan B.

Kathy Sinnott says, "After discovering this document it became clear that we are being told there is no Plan B to pressure us into voting yes. This pressure is not just from our own political leaders, but also from the European leaders they bring over here to help them. This may feel like blackmail to some, but actually it feels more like the tactics of a used car salesman: if you don't buy this nicely polished one right now, it will be gone in the morning and you will be out of luck. What this revelation about Europe’s Plan B tells us is that a NO vote will be better for Ireland. They are already planning the concessions they will offer us, all we need do is vote NO to get them. I call on Brian Cowen to be honest with the voters and admit that the current treaty is not “the best deal” available to us."

Mr. Lequiller also let it slip that for the moment they would have to yield to Irish opposition to fiscal harmonisation and continue to hide their plans for European defence.
__________________________________________________ __________________

There you have it folks. Why won't people vote NO to this bad deal and get a better deal for Ireland. Why such a sellout? It is shameful. VOTE NO FOR A BETTER DEAL FOR IRELAND.[/quote]

Can she proove what she is saying.. if she can, can you please provide the links... Kathy Sinnot is on the no campaign so i believe she could be simply be exagerrating this so i will continue to vote yes because frankly she has lied on the palmplet she produced so i thing shes lying now[/quote]

I emailed her office for some supporting documents. In the meantime can you provide links showing how she has lied in the past? While we're waiting for that, here's a link to a video exposing the misleading statements of the Pro-Treaty politicians (incl. Msr. Cowen) during the Nice Treaty. They have not been held accountable for their misleading statements on how Ireland would not be overrun by immigrants thanks to the Nice Treaty II. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hDcCrBzN0&watch_response"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hDcCrB ... h_response[/url] How can these same liars be trusted today??[/quote:1r6anskm]

Here's the link from Kathy Sinnott. http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/eu ... asp#P5_163 It is in French.[/quote:1r6anskm]

This is the sentence you/she's referring to:

Il faut néanmoins envisager le pire et, donc, réfléchir à une solution en cas de vote négatif. Dans cette hypothèse, il faudrait sans doute demander un nouveau vote après l’adoption d’un certain nombre d’amendements, comme cela a été fait pour le traité de Nice.

As was pointed out above, Lequiller is incorrect when he uses the phrase "comme cela a été fait pour le traité de Nice"/"as was done for the Nice Treaty", because there were no amendments to the treaty itself.

The man said that it's forcement souhaité/very much desired that we vote yes, but that one should nevertheless be prepared for the worse. However the worse involves getting 27 countries round a table again, and this is just an inaccurate (on amendments) remark made after he's said that he doesn't want to say too much because the Irish don't like opinions from other countries. It hardly means that the Council secretariat or COREPER are in the middle of preparations for an eventual no vote.

[Earnest]

[quote=dealmachtigeier][quote=hibernia_free]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hDcCrB ... h_response[/url] How can these same liars be trusted today??

Here's the link from Kathy Sinnott. http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/eu ... asp#P5_163 It is in French.[/quote:1kz5xktk]

This is the sentence you/she's referring to:

Il faut néanmoins envisager le pire et, donc, réfléchir à une solution en cas de vote négatif. Dans cette hypothèse, il faudrait sans doute demander un nouveau vote après l’adoption d’un certain nombre d’amendements, comme cela a été fait pour le traité de Nice.

As was pointed out above, Lequiller is incorrect when he uses the phrase "comme cela a été fait pour le traité de Nice"/"as was done for the Nice Treaty", because there were no amendments to the treaty itself.

The man said that it's forcement souhaité/very much desired that we vote yes, but that one should nevertheless be prepared for the worse. However the worse involves getting 27 countries round a table again, and this is just an inaccurate (on amendments) remark made after he's said that he doesn't want to say too much because the Irish don't like opinions from other countries. It hardly means that the Council secretariat or COREPER are in the middle of preparations for an eventual no vote.[/quote:1kz5xktk]

People are getting hung up on the question of whether there were amendments for Nice II or not. They are missing the point that when you look at what Lequiller said the title of this thread is a nonsense. Kathy Sinnott's statement that there is a document is a nonsense. There is no Plan B. There is no evidence of a Plan B. (Or Plan C, if you like.) All he says is that they would have to ask for a new vote after some amendments. He clearly has no list of amendments in his head.

And indeed, it is difficult to imagine what a list of amendments would be like. More neo-liberalism, or less? A directly elected President of the European Council, or none at all? The No side is all over the place and no set of amendments would please them all.

[Helium Three]

The Yes camp is at least as much all over the place. They regularly tell us that we have to vote Yes because it took them all seven years to cobble Lisbon together, and that there would be chaos if they had to go back negotiating. The implication is that the thing would unravel because of competing interests.

But as usual the main tactic of the Yes side is to attack the No.

[Earnest]

The Yes camp is at least as much all over the place. They regularly tell us that we have to vote Yes because it took them all seven years to cobble Lisbon together, and that there would be chaos if they had to go back negotiating. The implication is that the thing would unravel because of competing interests.

But as usual the main tactic of the Yes side is to attack the No.

When I see somebody saying something wrong, I correct them. I don't feel the need for making long posts about how wonderful the Lisbon Treaty is. I don't think it's wonderful. I just think it's the best available, and rejecting it is likely to produce something worse.

Even if the Yes camp is all over the place, this is not comparable to the No camp being all over the place. Because if Yes wins, no alternative will have to be considered. If No wins, somebody is going to have to work out an alternative. And they won't know which direction to go in.