Vote on text and not outside issues, churches urge voters

[Alliance]

PROTESTANT CHURCHES: THE EUROPEAN Union is "a remarkable experiment" in peaceful co-operation and the Lisbon Treaty "a considered effort" to respond to global challenges, the three main Protestant churches have said.

Stopping short of calling for a Yes vote, the Church of Ireland, Presbyterians and Methodists urged people to study the treaty and to vote, but also to make their decision on the treaty's contents and not on outside issues.

Accepting that rules designed for a Union of six are no longer suitable for a 27-strong club, the three churches said they recognised that enlargement had brought "new challenges" and that "some reform is necessary".

Today, the Union has to act effectively against "external challenges" on the global stage, including climate change, higher food costs and energy costs, that "can best be faced on a multinational basis", they said, in a joint statement yesterday.

It was issued by the Church of Ireland European Affairs Working Group, the Church and Society committee of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and the Council on Social Responsibility of the Methodist Church in Ireland,

full story
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/irelan ... 49749.html

[Papinian]

But the existing rules under Nice specifically envisaged enlargement to at least the existing 27 member states.

Maybe nobody's told the Protestant Churches but the original Treaty of Rome is not what we'll be left with if we vote No, but the same Nice treaty that we voted on in 2001 and 2002 and that we were told was necessary for enlargement.

Nobody on the Yes side seems to say that Nice is a failure, so where's the problem?

[Papinian]

Also, could some Yes campaigner please point out how the changes in Lisbon will facilitate combatting climate change and reducing food costs and energy costs?

Otherwise these sort of claims being made for Lisbon are the equivalent of the claims that it will introduce abortion into Ireland.

BTW To me it seems that higher food and energy costs might actually go a good way towards combatting climate change.

[TradCat]

Of course the Protestant Churches were also in favour of our membership of the last economic and political union we had to shoot our way out of.

[Gimpanzee]

Of course the Protestant Churches were also in favour of our membership of the last economic and political union we had to shoot our way out of.

[Gimpanzee]

Also, could some Yes campaigner please point out how the changes in Lisbon will facilitate combatting climate change and reducing food costs and energy costs?

Otherwise these sort of claims being made for Lisbon are the equivalent of the claims that it will introduce abortion into Ireland.

BTW To me it seems that higher food and energy costs might actually go a good way towards combatting climate change.

I'm not a yes campaigner (yes voter), but I'd have thought that any effective program regarding climate change will require considerably more unity of purpose from the member states that has been shown to date. Lisbon will make this easier to achieve to some degree. I think the EU's bona fides in this regard stand up. The EU has been progressive relative to the rest of the developed world, and if it wasn't for EU environmental legislation you can just imagine how much weaker environmental safeguards would be in Ireland.

As for food costs, not sure what way that will go, between CAP, the WTO and the rising overheads on food production, but again, if I had to chose between Ireland fighting its own corner on these issues, or the EU doing so on my behalf, I'd take the EU every day of the week.

[mmclo]

Also, could some Yes campaigner please point out how the changes in Lisbon will facilitate combatting climate change and reducing food costs and energy costs?

Otherwise these sort of claims being made for Lisbon are the equivalent of the claims that it will introduce abortion into Ireland.

It provides a legal basis for these actions for the first time, legislation can hten follow

[C&AG]

Slightly off topic sorry, is there a list here on this site of issues + their corresponding relevant articles? If I'm worried about tax which article(s) do I look at and so on for abortion, euthanasia, militarism etc.

thanks

[mmclo]

Slightly off topic sorry, is there a list here on this site of issues + their corresponding relevant articles? If I'm worried about tax which article(s) do I look at and so on for abortion, euthanasia, militarism etc.

thanks

I believe Village magazine is producing something like this

[Papinian]

Gimpanzee: I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but your response really doesn't say anything about how Lisbon will make it easier for the EU to combat climate change. Could you please be more specific?

Your statement that

"I think the EU's bona fides in this regard stand up. The EU has been progressive relative to the rest of the developed world, and if it wasn't for EU environmental legislation you can just imagine how much weaker environmental safeguards would be in Ireland."

really doesn't bear on Lisbon. In fact, it's clear that the EU has been able to pass environmental legislation quite successfully under the current arrangements (indeed much environmental legislation dates back to the early 1990s when it was more difficult to pass things by QMV). It has nothing to say about Lisbon.

As regards food prices, again you don't say what difference Lisbon will make.

The point is that we're not choosing between EU and no EU, we're choosing between Nice and Lisbon, and they're completely different choices. It would be great if the Yes side could stop trying to mislead people on this.