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Thread: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

  1. #31
    Politics.ie Member CookieMonster's Avatar
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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    [quote=Twin Towers]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Irish Liberty Forum":2ww04g6b
    Just wondering: how do you know how much labour "we" "need"?
    We would "know" in the same way as any sensible country that can have managed immigrant labour without mass invasion.

    How does Australia know?[/quote:2ww04g6b]

    I would hardly cite Australia as a shining example of sensible immigration policy.
    A poster of some consequence...

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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    [quote=Twin Towers]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Irish Liberty Forum":1mrycxlm
    It's a collectivist way of looking at things to say that a country can "know" how many people should live there.
    You were talking about Labour were you not? At least thats what you said you found interesting.

    Now you seem to have jumped to the make up of a population.[/quote:1mrycxlm]

    Has there been a misunderstanding? Trampas said "we could have all the labour we needed...", I asked how he knew how much labour we needed, you said that we would know in the same was that Australia knew, and I said why I thought the idea was strange. That's all that happened.

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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CookieMonster
    I would hardly cite Australia as a shining example of sensible immigration policy.
    Why what is wrong with it?
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  4. #34
    Politics.ie Regular Electro's Avatar
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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    The "No" side used many of the same arguments during the the Nice Referendum they're using now against Lisbon, yet all they're dire predictions in relation to taxation, neutrality and abortion didn't happen.
    They've cried wolf once too often to be believed this time
    Quotes from the No side with regard to taxation, neutrality and abortion from the Nice referendum please. I do not recall those points being made quite the same way in the 2001/2002 referenda. Indeed this would only be as expected - they are two very different legal documents. Nice was incremental while Lisbon is revolutionary (formerly being called the EU Constitution after all, and giving the EU primacy over Irish National Laws and the Irish Constitution). Those arguments would have little basis as a consequence of Nice directly, however they are very real this time round.

    However, if it is the case that the Nice Treaty led to the Lisbon Treaty, the latter being a revolutionary new framework which probably will change our tax, defence and abortion policies against our will, can it be said that the No side from Nice will ultimately be right?

    Of course, the No voting and campaigning blocs have changed substantially between Nice and Lisbon, that's another point you are missing.

    [quote:1nhtrn45]I would hardly cite Australia as a shining example of sensible immigration policy.
    Why what is wrong with it?[/quote:1nhtrn45]

    I'd say for the pro-mass immigration camp, the main problem is that it's not open borders. Though it may well change by the time Australia's newly elected Labour Government are finished.
    Marxists, Feminists and Leftists operate on the basis of "liberating tolerance" - i.e. their ideas should be tolerated, and any opposition should be suppressed.

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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    The fundamental point of the EU is free movement of goods, services and people regardless of Nice, Lisbon or any other treaty so this immigration thing is a complete red herring.

    As part of the accession negotiations some countries restricted movement of people but that was for limited period.

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    Politics.ie Regular FrankSpeaks's Avatar
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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator
    For the past 3 weeks running, the Sunday Times opinion pages have given space (1,000+ words each week) to three people from "Open Europe", an organisation advocating a NO to Lisbon vote. Also, in today's paper they give Declan Ganley, chair of Libertas, a soft profile. Publicity, publicity, publicity...

    I am just getting a little sick of the paranoia on the NO side that various media organs are biased against them. As it boasts in it's own pages, The Sunday Times is "the largest selling quality broadsheet" in Ireland. Surely, someone on the NO side must have noticed this support from the right-wing economics team of Kiberd/ FitzGibbon ?

    Stop being a) paranoid and b) having the glass half empty mentality on media coverage.
    I did notice this and it seems to me that the No side are getting significantly more media coverage than the Yes side and a lot the Yes coverage seems to have a negative slant to it.
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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankSpeaks
    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator
    For the past 3 weeks running, the Sunday Times opinion pages have given space (1,000+ words each week) to three people from "Open Europe", an organisation advocating a NO to Lisbon vote. Also, in today's paper they give Declan Ganley, chair of Libertas, a soft profile. Publicity, publicity, publicity...

    I am just getting a little sick of the paranoia on the NO side that various media organs are biased against them. As it boasts in it's own pages, The Sunday Times is "the largest selling quality broadsheet" in Ireland. Surely, someone on the NO side must have noticed this support from the right-wing economics team of Kiberd/ FitzGibbon ?

    Stop being a) paranoid and b) having the glass half empty mentality on media coverage.
    I did notice this and it seems to me that the No side are getting significantly more media coverage than the Yes side and a lot the Yes coverage seems to have a negative slant to it.
    on what planet?
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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trampas
    It is true all right. And there was no need for it. We could have had all the labour we needed without giving East European the rights that were denied to them by 12 of the other 15 states.
    So the problem was how Ireland gave extra rights to East Europeans and 12 countries didn't.
    That would suggest 15 countries had a sovereign right to decide their immigration policies and the EU did not dictate anything on immigration.

    Ireland and not the EU decided our immigration policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach
    It was a correct and factual prediction by elements of the no side like Anthony Coughlan that mass-migration of cheap labour would come West after Enlargement. Whatever you may feel about the motivation, these predictions came through.
    Again our Govt. opted to go this route, not the EU. I think you should take your grievance up with the Govt. not the EU.

    The Govt. changed the criteria for Bulgaria and Romania which would suggest we have power to choose our immigration controls.

  9. #39
    Politics.ie Regular borntorum's Avatar
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    Re: The Sunday Times - Libertas' Pravda ?

    The establishment are used to having all the media line up behind them, sheep-like, for most referenda, and especially for any matters concerning Europe. Of course, the house journal of Official Ireland, the Irish Times, can always be relied upon to toe the sanctioned line.

    For that reason all true democrats should welcome the fact that a serious, mainstream paper like the Sunday Times is providing readers with a different viewpoint. Ireland needs more diversity in its media, not less. Also, I thought it interesting that the only organ distributing a copy of the treaty so far is the Sunday Times. What does it tell us that No supporters want the treaty to be read, but Yes people seem less willing to publicise it?

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