TV3 Ganley-Sutherland debate now

[NotDevsSon]

Brian Cowan, leader of this country, has not read what he is telling, TELLING the people to vote on.

Do you have ANY idea how many documents a government minister, or anyone who works in politics has to read? He works a 16 hour day. He relies on analyses from professional analysts hired for that purpose. Your argument is silly beyond belief.

Ah, no. DeRossa voted against respecting the outcome fo the Irish referendum while in FULL VIEW OF THE EU PARLIAMENT. That is treason.

NO. He voted to bin a pointless gimmick of a motion put down by the Shinners.

I'm not denying it's in their leaflet. It's in blue and white on my kitchen table... what I am denying however is that it couldn't be legalised through the ECJ. If there was a repeat of that case with the girl whose child would die within minutes of being born, I believe it would have the law over turned.

It could ONLY be overturned in Ireland, not in the EU. The ECJ does not have jurisdiction. How many times does this have to be explained before it sinks in to some people?

And do you know, if article 1 of this constitution said that Abortion must be made available to everyone who seeks it, I would be on the no side. And I do believe that there is a chance of it coming into force in the future, not in six months, not in a year, maybe in twenty. But I do think it'll be through the ECJ it comes in.

It CANNOT be through the ECJ unless TWO different things are done.

1. The entire EU amends the Maastricht Treaty to remove the Irish abortion protocol - and that would involve a referendum in Ireland.

2. The entire EU enacts a new treaty amending Maastricht to grant to the EU and its institutions jurisdiction in abortion. If that was tried it would be voted down in 27 of 27 countries, because Liberals fear the ECJ would take a conservative viewpoint, and Conservatives fear it would take a liberal viewpoint, so BOTH sides as determined that it will be a cold day in hell before abortion is given as a competence to the EU. And until that is done, and abortion becomes an issue for EU law rather than National Law, the ECJ cannot legalise abortion in countries where it is criminalised, or criminalise it in countries where it is legalised.

[madboggar]

Great show last night on TV3, it really cleared up some of the bull that is be thrown around the radio and television. Ganley looked confused and i have to hand it too Sutherland he had his information off. Clear and straight to the point.

Well done to Sutherland if we had more ministers like him we would be better off..

[brio910]

Even that pro-EU mouthpiece the Irish Times today is admitting Ireland will not be able to veto 9+ other countries pressing ahead with CCCTB.

Who ever claimed we could?

It is the classic FT and Libertas argument: claim with a shock that Ireland cannot do what everyone knows they cannot do, and pretend it is some dramatic revelation 'forced from the Yes side' by the No side.

You got to hand it to them. Facts are a movable feast on the No side.

Other states who wish can go ahead with plans for CCCTB under enhanced cooperation provisions of Lisbon.

This contradicts both Brendan Butler of IBEC: "The proposed CCCTB also needs all 27 members to sign up. If anyone says no, it has to be withdrawn." (Sunday Times 20/4/08 - Bus Sect. page 5)

And Dick Roche: "ANY CCCTB proposal would require unanimous agreement and there is no chance of that." (9/4/08) To American Chamber of Commerce

Both caught telling porkies

[Gadjodilo]

The veto on tax is ineffective because of Article 93 which will allow the ECJ to rule that our corporate-taxation is a "distortion of competition".

For umpteen-millionth time, article 93 has nothing to do with corporate taxes since it clearly relates to indirect taxes and corporate tax is not an indirect tax. You’ve been told this again and again and been beaten soundly on it. The Referendum Commission has said this too.

I’m saying this not for your benefit since lying to the Irish people is clearly part of your modus operandi. I’m saying it for third parties who might be new to this debate.

Your approach is beneath contempt and it speaks volumes that none of the other ‘no’ people has dissociated themselves from you.

[Gadjodilo]

Ganley is wining hands down. Sutherland seems very smug. I thought Ursla Halligan was being fair to Ganley this time until they cut the program me very early because Ganley was wining.

No they didn't. The programme runs for 21 minutes every time.

Ganley's lies were caught out on tax, CCCTB,......

Sorry, folks. I didn’t see the debate at all. What did Ganley say on corporate tax?

[Retrolives]

Does anybody have a link to the debate yet? I missed it.
Thanks

[Edo]

Ganley is wining hands down. Sutherland seems very smug. I thought Ursla Halligan was being fair to Ganley this time until they cut the program me very early because Ganley was wining.

No they didn't. The programme runs for 21 minutes every time.

Ganley's lies were caught out on tax, CCCTB,......

Sorry, folks. I didn’t see the debate at all. What did Ganley say on corporate tax?

the usual spoof and Sutherland made him look like an idiot - got him to admit that corporate tax wasn't up for grabs -got him to admit that our veto overrides anything put up - before he then flew off into CCCTB land with the usual guff enhanced co-operation -where he was trying to say that because other nations may go ahead with this (bearing in mind - it is not in Lisbon treaty whatsoever) - it somehow will force us and the Brits and the other 15 nations who have already declared that CCCTB is a dead duckie into it!!!! - Does he not know there is nothing to stop the Germans reducing their corporate taxation to zero tomorrow and there is feck all we can do about it Lisbon or not because corporate taxation has nothing to do with the EU.

In Short He was doing the usual routine or trying to cast a shadow of doubt in the face of the facts - Tactically it has had some traction - but anybody watching yesterday would be in no doubt after Sutherland dismantled him on the issue.

By the way - which of the "No" crowd are doing the big red posters - the" More Tax ,less Power" "It will cost you" ones ? - just asking - because they are very good - respect - makes the thousands spent by Libertas on the Billboards look like a very expensive Flop.

[corkman2007]

They're using more or less the same slogans as from the Nice campaign.

It might be an idea for some pro-Lisbon groups to put posters up with old anti-Nice campaign slogans, along-side some current, similar anti-Lisbon ones, with a question - something like this: "They lied then. Are they lying now?"

[Gadjodilo]

Sorry, folks. I didn’t see the debate at all. What did Ganley say on corporate tax?

the usual spoof and Sutherland made him look like an idiot - got him to admit that corporate tax wasn't up for grabs -got him to admit that our veto overrides anything put up

Thanks for that, Edo. So then only Future Taoiseach is still parrotting this rubbish like some demented Japanese war veteran in the jungles of Borneo.

It's still on the Libertas website, though.
http://www.libertas.org/content/view/252/131/

[madboggar]

I love it when sutherland caught him with the abortion question, did you see ganley try and skip around it " I don't remember making that coment to that paper" brilliant.. Just shows libertas are scare scaremongers..