Proof Lisbon doesn't override Irish Constitution

[seabhcan]

Lisbon contains the following legal rights for children:

Article 24 - The rights of the child

1. Children shall have the right to such protection and care as is necessary for their well-being. They
may express their views freely. Such views shall be taken into consideration on matters which concern
them in accordance with their age and maturity.

2. In all actions relating to children, whether taken by public authorities or private institutions, the
child's best interests must be a primary consideration.

3. Every child shall have the right to maintain on a regular basis a personal relationship and direct
contact with both his or her parents, unless that is contrary to his or her interests.

If, as the No voters claim, Lisbon overrides the Irish constitution, then there will be no need for a referendum on the rights of children in Ireland. Yet the government is planning one next year.

so, No Voters, is the Government is wrong, and if Lisbon passes, do we not need a referendum on childrens rights?

[Binx]

Thats some nice circular reasoning you got going on there. Firstly, the constitutional amendment was a populist measure in response to an over hyped case, with only one thing in mind when they announced it, 2007 GE. Secondly, it would look very arrogant if they came out and declared that they are dropping said populist measure as they 100% confident that the electorate will do as their told and vote yes. Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but our amendment will also try to limit or eliminate the defence of honest mistake in statutory rape cases. Finally, there many other possible reasons to vote no to the EU constitution, i mean, Lisbon Treaty, besides child protection.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Lisbon contains the following legal rights for children:

Article 24 - The rights of the child

1. Children shall have the right to such protection and care as is necessary for their well-being. They
may express their views freely. Such views shall be taken into consideration on matters which concern
them in accordance with their age and maturity.

2. In all actions relating to children, whether taken by public authorities or private institutions, the
child's best interests must be a primary consideration.

3. Every child shall have the right to maintain on a regular basis a personal relationship and direct
contact with both his or her parents, unless that is contrary to his or her interests.

If, as the No voters claim, Lisbon overrides the Irish constitution, then there will be no need for a referendum on the rights of children in Ireland. Yet the government is planning one next year.

so, No Voters, is the Government is wrong, and if Lisbon passes, do we not need a referendum on childrens rights?

That is a daft argument. The poll planned by the government is speculated as being about overturning part or all of the Supreme Court ruling on "honest mistake", and that wording is not pertinant to the specifics of how that would be done. Terminology like "the right to such protection and care as is necessary for their well-being." is vague and there's no telling how a judge would interpret it.

You are confusing consistency with childrens rights in general with consistency with the complex issue of trials for stautory rape that includes questions like strict/absolute liability, which are not covered in the above section of the Charter.

[brio910]

The Constitutional Amendment being adding at Lisbon is as follows:

11° No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts
done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the
obligations of membership of the European Union referred to in
subsection 10° of this section, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or
measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions 25
thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this
section, from having the force of law in the State.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn ... b1408d.pdf


Lisbon, Declaration 17 Primacy of EU Law:

17. Declaration concerning primacy

The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case

If we pass Lisbon and hand over a raft of vetos, people (the vast majority of whom we did not and cannot elect / or remove ) can impose laws on Irish people against their will.
This is not democracy, but subservience.

EU regulations are directly binding on Ireland. They are superior to Irish Law and over-ride the Irish Constitution.

[Binx]

Hey FT, wanna start the "Members and Former Members Mainstream Political Parties Urging a No Vote on Lisbon Society" (MFMMPPUNVLS, for short)

[CookieMonster]

(MFMMPPUNVLS, for short)

Funny, that's the exact sound I made when I read seabhcan's post.

[Binx]

(MFMMPPUNVLS, for short)

Funny, that's the exact sound I made when I read seabhcan's post.

Yeah, you just have to laugh a the mount of threads on the Lisbon treaty. I know its the big political issue at the moment but surely there's enough threads that anyone's point can be accomodated by an existing thread rather than starting a new one. You'd almost swear it was possible to change peoples minds through this medium.

[Kite]

I have just been asked to partake in yet another poll (registered poll member).
Let’s just pretend that this poll was about nothing as important as the Lisbon Treaty etc but was in relation to a “bar of chocolate”.

Questions;
1. Have you ever heard that chocolate is very good for you?
2. Did you ever hear of “Lisbon” brand chocolate?
3. Would you agree with the statement “Lisbon” brand chocolate is good for you and will help your in you daily well being?
4. Would you agree with the statement that, we all should eat at least 3 bars of “Lisbon” chocolate a day?
5. How often do you personally eat “Lisbon” brand chocolate?
a. 3 times a day
b. Once a day
c. No, I don’t eat “Lisbon” brand chocolate.

(If you answer NO to any two of the above questions you get the reply, “we have met our target audience for this survey, thank you for taking part and we will be in touch again soon)

Would this represent a fair and impartial survey, or would it lead some to think we should all run out and stockpile “Lisbon” brand chocolate?

Ask the “right” question to get the “right” answer!

[seabhcan]

(MFMMPPUNVLS, for short)

Funny, that's the exact sound I made when I read seabhcan's post.

Yeah, you just have to laugh a the mount of threads on the Lisbon treaty. I know its the big political issue at the moment but surely there's enough threads that anyone's point can be accomodated by an existing thread rather than starting a new one. You'd almost swear it was possible to change peoples minds through this medium.

I think its become more of a sport at this stage.

[Earnest]

The Constitutional Amendment being adding at Lisbon is as follows:

11° No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts
done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the
obligations of membership of the European Union referred to in
subsection 10° of this section, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or
measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions 25
thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this
section, from having the force of law in the State.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn ... b1408d.pdf


Lisbon, Declaration 17 Primacy of EU Law:

[quote:ce74up35]17. Declaration concerning primacy

The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case

If we pass Lisbon and hand over a raft of vetos, people (the vast majority of whom we did not and cannot elect / or remove ) can impose laws on Irish people against their will.
This is not democracy, but subservience.

EU regulations are directly binding on Ireland. They are superior to Irish Law and over-ride the Irish Constitution.[/quote:ce74up35]

The amendment is similar to what is already in the Irish Constitution in regard to the previous treaties on the EU. The Constitution already provides that EU regulations override the Constitution and Irish laws (if they happen to be contradictory and if they are on a subject over which the EU has been given power). The Council and the European Parliament already impose laws on Irish people (the difference Lisbon makes is that more of them will require the approval of the European Parliament, which we vote for: that looks like democracy to me).