EC denies claims in leaked memo

[MacCoise]

Oh, you're free to quote from The Times or The Daily Mail, or any other British eurosceptic rag that provides you with ammunition. You're entirely free to use the same quotes-out-of-context tricks as them, too. Just expect to get called on it, and expect a certain amount of mild derision that a republican should choose such sources. Still, politics makes strange bedfellows, they say.

Thanks for the advice Ibis.

You're the only one denying the facts here.
I see from the other thread you also dont believe what you see....

[ibis]

Oh, you're free to quote from The Times or The Daily Mail, or any other British eurosceptic rag that provides you with ammunition. You're entirely free to use the same quotes-out-of-context tricks as them, too. Just expect to get called on it, and expect a certain amount of mild derision that a republican should choose such sources. Still, politics makes strange bedfellows, they say.

Thanks for the advice Ibis.

You're the only one denying the facts here.
I see from the other thread you also dont believe what you see....

I certainly don't believe what you tell me without a good deal more evidence than you've ever offered. Nor do I believe footage taken by one party to a conflict - did you never see what they showed on TV in England about the Troubles?

[stringjack]

Some other comments were made on this topic here: -

A letter to EU staff from the Chair of the Constiutional Committee of the EP to halt all controversial discussions and plans in the run up to the referendum has been leaked. It was leaked to http://www.voteno.ie

Oh God my eyes...I can't see that mentioned, KN?

http://www.breakingnews.ie

<Mod> This link is more precise. </Mod>

http://www.breakingnews.ie

Ta. Would like to see the full text, though, rather than the bits Kieran Allen decides are quotable.

Have these letters influenced any "Yes" advocates into voting no??

Have these letters influenced any "Yes" advocates into voting no??

I can't answer for anyone else, but given the track record of the No side for seizing on anything that's EU and contentious, and pretending it's to do with Lisbon, I think they're being entirely reasonable.

Wow! So much devotion...

Wow! So much devotion...

Well, more thought, really, but whatever you're having yourself. Are you perhaps claiming that every issue that comes out of the EU at the moment is relevant to Lisbon?

You got that from two posts?

No, not every issue. Only the ones relevant.

You got that from two posts?

No, not every issue. Only the ones relevant.

So, if some issues are not relevant to Lisbon, but would be used by people who are not as discerning as your good self in order to try and persuade people to vote No (abortion is a good example) - then does it not make sense to save those issues for after the referendum? After all, the referendum is supposed to be about the Treaty, not other EU matters.

You got that from two posts?

No, not every issue. Only the ones relevant.

So, if some issues are not relevant to Lisbon, but would be used by people who are not as discerning as your good self in order to try and persuade people to vote No (abortion is a good example) - then does it not make sense to save those issues for after the referendum? After all, the referendum is supposed to be about the Treaty, not other EU matters.

No,no Ibis. You are lagging a bit there. Please keep up with the class.
According to Foreign Affairs the aim is "to focus the campaign on the overall benefits of the EU rather than on the Treaty iself." So you see, the Treaty is not what it is all about, at all, at all.

So, if some issues are not relevant to Lisbon, but would be used by people who are not as discerning as your good self in order to try and persuade people to vote No (abortion is a good example) - then does it not make sense to save those issues for after the referendum? After all, the referendum is supposed to be about the Treaty, not other EU matters.

No,no Ibis. You are lagging a bit there. Please keep up with the class.
According to Foreign Affairs the aim is "to focus the campaign on the overall benefits of the EU rather than on the Treaty iself." So you see, the Treaty is not what it is all about, at all, at all.

Would this be the RoC political masterclass of "whatever it takes to secure a No", Trampas?

So, if some issues are not relevant to Lisbon, but would be used by people who are not as discerning as your good self in order to try and persuade people to vote No (abortion is a good example) - then does it not make sense to save those issues for after the referendum? After all, the referendum is supposed to be about the Treaty, not other EU matters.

If these issues are relevant to the treaty, they should be brought to the attention of the voters.

However, if the treaty will affect some issues, they too should be brought to the attention of the voting public.

Furthermore, if say, abortion was to be legalized, and it could only be done because of powers granted to the ECJ through the Lisbon treaty, that also should be brought to the attention of the people.

Off course, abortion is just an example.

If these issues are relevant to the treaty, they should be brought to the attention of the voters.

However, if the treaty will affect some issues, they too should be brought to the attention of the voting public.

Furthermore, if say, abortion was to be legalized, and it could only be done because of powers granted to the ECJ through the Lisbon treaty, that also should be brought to the attention of the people.

Off course, abortion is just an example.

Of course - I'm sure that's the only reason Jens-Peter Bonde ever mentioned it. So, you would accept that it is entirely reasonable for irrelevant issues to be saved until after the referendum?

Would this be the RoC political masterclass of "whatever it takes to secure a No", Trampas?

Nothing like a level playing field is what I say. Now what have you really got ?

[stringjack]

Some other posts were made on this topic here:

I enclose text and photo of letter from EU Parliament -Committtee on Constitutional Affairs. It says it is agreed policy from the head of the European Parliament down, to withhold vital and senstive information about the effect of the Treaty of Lisbon from the people:

From the Chairman of the COMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS

to

Mr Reimer BOGE
President of the Committee on Budgets
European Parliament
ASP 10E130
BRUSSELS
Ref: D (2008)15623

Dear Colleague,


Allow me to draw your attention to the outcome of a discussion that took place at the meeting

of coordinators of the Committee on Constitutional Affairs on 28 February, concerning the

precautions that ought to be taken by Parliament in conducting the preparatory work for the

implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon.


Having regard to an agreement recently reached with the President of the European Parliament, the coordinators of the Committee on Constitutional Affairs concluded that the preparatory work, at both internal and interinstitutional level, should start immediately. It was acknowledged, however, that given the politically sensitive nature of some of the issues at hand, a degree of .caution needs, to be exercised. In particular, it would not appear appropriate to leal with, politically sensitive aspects in preparatory documents, concerning the implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon while important discussions concerning the ratification of of this Treaty are still ongoing in the Member States. A similar approach is being taken by the other institutions concerning their preparatory work, and this principle seems acquired insofar as the interinstitutional contacts on the matter are concerned.

I have been asked to contact the chairperson of other committees dealing with the implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon and inform them of these conclusions. In fact such an approach calls for the cooperation of all the bodies of the Parliament in order to be successful. It is my understanding that the Committee on Budgets is preparing an important report on the implications of the Treaty of Lisbon in financial and budgetary matters. This leport is expected with high interest, not least by the Committee on Constitutional Affairs, as it will provide useful guidance for its own report on the adaptation of the Rules of Procedure of the Parliament to the Treaty of Lisbon in relation to financial and budgetary matters.

It would therefore appear highly advisable that any document concerning the implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon which addresses politically sensitive matters be examined only when it becomes sufficiently clear that the Treaty will enter into force.

Yours sincerely,

Jo LEINEN "

Date stamped 12/3/08

[attachment=0:flcrw7px]committee_on_constitutional_affairs.jpeg[/attachment:flcrw7px]

We are now aware that
I It is the agreed policy of the EU Parliament President and committees to keep vital information about the effect of Lisbon from the people.

The European Commission has also agreed to 'tone down and delay' certain announcements from Brussels before the Treaty of Lisbon - leaked in email from British diplomat.

'Lisbon Treaty: text of e-mail

The text of the controversial e-mail which refers to a briefing by Dan Mulhall, director of the EU division in the Department of Foreign Affairs about the Lisbon Treaty referendum. The UK diplomat sent the e-mail to the British foreign office on February 29th after receiving a briefing from a senior official in the Department of Foreign Affairs:

"The draft, largely incomprehensible to the lay reader, had been agreed following lengthy consultation with government lawyers and with the political parties.
......
"Mulhall said other partners - including the commission - were playing a helpful, low-profile role. Vice-president Margot Wallstrom, who had been in Dublin yesterday and today, had told Dermot Ahern that the commission was willing to tone down or delay messages that might be unhelpful."

Reference: Daily Mail Monday 14/4/08
Irish Times, Wednesday, April 16, 2008

Is it not now easy to undertand why Valéry Giscard d'Estaing told Le Monde on June 2007 :

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

Just as a matter of interest Brio, where did you get the document you posted about?

Both the MEPs mentioned in it are German. It is a bit odd that they are writing to each other in English.
Would Brian Crowley write to Gay Mitchell in Italian?

Just as a matter of interest Brio, where did you get the document you posted about?

Both the MEPs mentioned in it are German. It is a bit odd that they are writing to each other in English.
Would Brian Crowley write to Gay Mitchell in Italian?

Well, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was also helpfully written in English.

McKenna had the above print out with her as a prop tonight it made no impact with the audience (not even the no side were impressed)

[quote=R Paul]

Just as a matter of interest Brio, where did you get the document you posted about?

Both the MEPs mentioned in it are German. It is a bit odd that they are writing to each other in English.
Would Brian Crowley write to Gay Mitchell in Italian?

Well, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was also helpfully written in English.

Ah, that explains it.[/quote:flcrw7px]

Just as a matter of interest Brio, where did you get the document you posted about?

Both the MEPs mentioned in it are German. It is a bit odd that they are writing to each other in English.
Would Brian Crowley write to Gay Mitchell in Italian?

Are you suggesting its a fabrication or just being desperate?

ETA: See also this thread.

[brio910]

The jpeg of the document seems not to be viewable, in my browser at least.
I would like to put it up again for all to see.
How can I submit the jpeg to view - on the post a reply page?

thanks for your help guys

[constitutionus]

anyone here how that court case to get a referendum in britain went?

[He3]

Time to recall this Golden Oldie Thread.

...


EC denies claims in leaked memo
Wednesday, 16 April 2008 15:20

The European Commission has denied reports that it is putting off announcing anything that could cause controversy ahead of Ireland's referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

A leaked British diplomatic email claims commission officials told Irish politicians that it was willing to tone down or delay messages that could be unhelpful during the referendum campaign.


The memo details a conversation between the Director General of the Department of Foreign Affairs' EU Division, Dan Mulhall, and a senior official at the British embassy in Dublin, Elizabeth Green.

Mr Mulhall is reported to have said procedurally it would have been better to have the referendum in October, but French plans to develop EU defence policy during the French presidency later this year would have complicated the referendum campaign.

Full Story

VOTE NO

We know where we stand in the eyes of our Department of 'Foreign' Affairs from this leak last year:

'[...]commission officials told Irish politicians that it was willing to tone down or delay messages that could be unhelpful during the referendum campaign.

The memo details a conversation between the Director General of the Department of Foreign Affairs' EU Division, Dan Mulhall, and a senior official at the British embassy in Dublin, Elizabeth Green.


Mr Mulhall is reported to have said procedurally it would have been better to have the referendum in October, but French plans to develop EU defence policy during the French presidency later this year would have complicated the referendum campaign.

The memo says French President Nicolas Sarkozy is too unpredictable. Diplomatically that is the most damaging thing in the memo as Ireland is traditionally close to the French particularly on agriculture issues.

That was the main topic when the Taoiseach met President Sarkozy last September in Paris the same day that agreement was struck to send Irish troops to Chad with the French.

The memo also said that other EU partners, especially the commission were being helpful in suppressing news that might affect the referendum campaign'.

RTÉ News: EC denies claims in leaked memo

Footnote: ibis watchers will note his attempt to cast doubt on the Leinen letter that brio posted. Those were the days my friends....

[The Caped Cod]

Ainsi l’opinion publique serait-elle conduite à adopter, sans le savoir, les dispositions que l’on n’ose pas lui présenter en direct ! - Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, Le Monde, 14 juin 2007

Le Monde.fr

There's no pint clicking the link as you have to pay to use the archives. It's just to show that the source, in it's original context, exists. And sure if you fancy payin to read it fire away.

[He3]

Ainsi l’opinion publique serait-elle conduite à adopter, sans le savoir, les dispositions que l’on n’ose pas lui présenter en direct ! - Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, Le Monde, 14 juin 2007

Le Monde.fr

There's no pint clicking the link as you have to pay to use the archives. It's just to show that the source, in it's original context, exists. And sure if you fancy payin to read it fire away.

As PJ Sheehan says so convincingly, denial is not a river in Egypt.