Why aren't France, Netherlands et al voting?

[evercloserunion]

There is much controversy surrounding the fact that a similar Treaty to Lisbon was rejected by referendum in France and the Netherlands a few years ago, and that these people aren't being given a vote this time around. Why is this though? In what way does this Treaty differ from the last in such a way as to render referenda unnecessary in these countries? Presumably if referenda are not being held in these countries, then referenda are not deemed necessary by the countries' respective constitutions, which were democratically ratified? And I know in France a referendum could have been forced on a petition by at least 40% of parliament but there was insufficient opposition to the Treaty in France's democratically elected government, is this the case in other countries?

[ivnryn]

There is no requirement in those countries to hold a referenda. The referenda in those countries for the constitution was based on a mistaken belief that they would pass.

This would have given a boost to the legitimacy of the EU as a large number of EU citizens would have effectively endorsed the constitution.

Since they refused to pass the constitution, the Lisbon Treaty is being passed by the legislatures of the member states. The effect on the legitimacy of the EU is in the eye of the beholder.

Holland is interesting as it does technically require referenda for major decisions, but the government there decided that Lisbon wasn't major enough.

The government here decided that the Crotty judgement applied and thus direct authorisation by the Irish citizens is required to pass the treaty. That is somewhat open to debate and a Supreme Court challenge might not fall the same way as previously. There is no direct requirement in out constitution to have a referendum, but the Supreme Court decided that it was necessary if powers are given away to another organisation, unless covered within the scope of a previously authorised treaty.

In any case, each member state gets to decide how it will ratify the treaties and in France as an example, the President said in his election campaign that he wasn't going to put it to the vote. That is an argument towards saying that the French effectively agreed to the treaty (though somewhat weak).

[spartacus]

The people of France said "no"
Surely if France is to change its position then it is up to the people of France to decide rather than the government?

The people of the Netherlands said "no"
Surely if the Netherlands is to change its position then it is up to the people of the Netherlands to decide rather than the government?

[CookieMonster]

The people of France said "no"
Surely if France is to change its position then it is up to the people of France to decide rather than the government?

The people of the Netherlands said "no"
Surely if the Netherlands is to change its position then it is up to the people of the Netherlands to decide rather than the government?

Change it's position on what? They're no longer voting (or not voting) and the Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe. The issue is now over the Lisbon treaty. They voted no to the Constitution and that was that. Now they're not being asked about the Lisbon Treaty.

[spartacus]

The people of France said "no"
Surely if France is to change its position then it is up to the people of France to decide rather than the government?

The people of the Netherlands said "no"
Surely if the Netherlands is to change its position then it is up to the people of the Netherlands to decide rather than the government?

Change it's position on what? They're no longer voting (or not voting) and the Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe. The issue is now over the Lisbon treaty. They voted no to the Constitution and that was that. Now they're not being asked about the Lisbon Treaty.

Do we really need to rehash all the quotes as to how the Lisbon Treaty is in reality the Constitution?
By any chance would you be afraid of the possible outcome of a democratic rerun of a referendum in France and the Netherlands?

[Rebelman]

Do we really need to rehash all the quotes as to how the Lisbon Treaty is in reality the Constitution?

just because multiple people say something does not make it correct this treaty is not an EU constitution and never was one.

[CookieMonster]

The people of France said "no"
Surely if France is to change its position then it is up to the people of France to decide rather than the government?

The people of the Netherlands said "no"
Surely if the Netherlands is to change its position then it is up to the people of the Netherlands to decide rather than the government?

Change it's position on what? They're no longer voting (or not voting) and the Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe. The issue is now over the Lisbon treaty. They voted no to the Constitution and that was that. Now they're not being asked about the Lisbon Treaty.

Do we really need to rehash all the quotes as to how the Lisbon Treaty is in reality the Constitution?
By any chance would you be afraid of the possible outcome of a democratic rerun of a referendum in France and the Netherlands?

Afraid of a democratic rerun of a referendum in France and the Netherlands? God god no! I would welcome it!

[Champa]

The people of France said "no"
Surely if France is to change its position then it is up to the people of France to decide rather than the government?

The people of the Netherlands said "no"
Surely if the Netherlands is to change its position then it is up to the people of the Netherlands to decide rather than the government?

Change it's position on what? They're no longer voting (or not voting) and the Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe. The issue is now over the Lisbon treaty. They voted no to the Constitution and that was that. Now they're not being asked about the Lisbon Treaty.

People are not falling for that old yarn anymore.

[CookieMonster]

The people of France said "no"
Surely if France is to change its position then it is up to the people of France to decide rather than the government?

The people of the Netherlands said "no"
Surely if the Netherlands is to change its position then it is up to the people of the Netherlands to decide rather than the government?

Change it's position on what? They're no longer voting (or not voting) and the Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe. The issue is now over the Lisbon treaty. They voted no to the Constitution and that was that. Now they're not being asked about the Lisbon Treaty.

People are not falling for that old yarn anymore.

What yarn?

[FutureTaoiseach]

Polls in France and Holland show around 70% want a referendum but their govts won't give it to them because it knows they would vote no. It is constitutionally true that the govts of these countries have the constitutional right to ratify this treaty by parliamentary means. But morally, I think it is a hard thing for any true democrat to swallow that these govts who asked the people their opinions are now ignoring it, and worse, they are asking us to reward this strategy by voting yes. Believe it or not, such is the Opposition to this among the EU public that in Germany, when this treaty was called the EU Constitution, polls showed 96% (!) of Germans opposed to it. If we vote no we will be the toast of many European nations who are being disenfranchised - not least the Dutch and French. The price will probably be that Bertie or someone else won't become EU President of the Council (a position created in Lisbon). But then again the price of the Irish Parliament in 1800 rejecting the Act of Union would probably have been that those who were offered jobs, lands and titles in the British empire wouldn't have gotten that either. I'll be damned if I am going to vote away our independence just to give Bertie or some other Irish politician a cushy job in Brussels. This is the new Act of Union, and voting for it will return Ireland to the position of being dominated by big states.