Transparency of the Council of Ministers

[FutureTaoiseach]

The yes side claim that the treaty will mean more openess in terms of proceedings on the Council of Ministers. This is wrong. To find out why you need to look at how Lisbon changes the "Treaty establishing the Eurppean Community" (as opposed to the TEU changes). Article 207 is is changed as follows:

Article 207(25)

1. A committee consisting of the Permanent Representatives of the Member States shall be responsible for preparing the work of the Council and for carrying out the tasks assigned to it by the Council. The Committee may adopt procedural decisions in cases provided for in the Council's Rules of Procedure.

2. The Council shall be assisted by a General Secretariat, under the responsibility of a Secretary-General, High Representative for the common foreign and security policy, who shall be assisted by a Deputy Secretary-General responsible for the running of the General Secretariat. The Secretary-General and the Deputy Secretary-General shall be appointed by the Council acting by a qualified majority.

The Council shall decide on the organisation of the General Secretariat.

3. The Council shall adopt its Rules of Procedure.

For the purpose of applying Article 255(3), the Council shall elaborate in these Rules the conditions under which the public shall have access to Council documents. For the purpose of this paragraph, the Council shall define the cases in which it is to be regarded as acting in its legislative capacity, with a view to allowing greater access to documents in those cases, while at the same time preserving the effectiveness of its decision-making process. In any event, when the Council acts in its legislative capacity, the results of votes and explanations of vote as well as statements in the minutes shall be made public.

Here is Article 207 after Lisbon. Note the removal of the references to statements in the minutes being made public:

ARTICLE 207

1. A committee consisting of the Permanent Representatives of the Governments of the Member States shall be responsible for preparing the work of the Council and for carrying out the tasks assigned to it by the latter. The Committee may adopt procedural decisions in cases provided for in the Council's Rules of Procedure.

2. The Council shall be assisted by a General Secretariat, under the responsibility of a Secretary-General appointed by the Council.

The Council shall decide on the organisation of the General Secretariat by a simple majority.

Those arguing on this forum that the treaty will make the EU more transparent need to put their hands up and admit this is another euromyth. On the contrary Lisbon will entrench the culture of secrecy on the Council of Ministers.

[mmclo]

They are already public, I posted them before, anyway here they are again

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/cms3_app ... =en&mode=g

[FutureTaoiseach]

They are already public, I posted them before, anyway here they are again

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/cms3_app ... =en&mode=g

Do you concede that the changes above will make the Council more secretive and less transparent.

[mmclo]

Article 16 of the consolidated text of the Treaty on European Union states...

8. The Council shall meet in public when it deliberates and votes on a draft
legislative act.

you said

The yes side claim that the treaty will mean more openess in terms of proceedings on the Council of Ministers.

A legal basis for the council legislating in public is a major step forward from what exists now. So you are 100% wrong

[FutureTaoiseach]

I am looking at the consolidated TEU now and Article 16 says no such thing. I wonder do you mean the Treaty formerly known as the TEC but now called the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union? It's ironic that the link you showed me admits that the basis on which the minutes are made public is Article 207(3) - the very part of the TEC that Lisbon abolishes!

But it turns out, the TFU doesn't say what you're saying either. I stand over what I said. Lisbon is a recipe for a more secretive Europe.

Here is Article 16 of the TEU as amended by Lisbon:

Article 16 1.Member States shall inform and consult one another within the Council within the European Council and the Council on any matter of foreign and security policy of general interest in order to ensure that the Union's influence is exerted as effectively as possible by means of concerted and convergent action. in order to determine a common approach. Before undertaking any action on the international scene or entering into any commitment which could affect the Union's interests, each Member State shall consult the others within the European Council or the Council. Member States shall ensure, through the convergence of their actions, that the Union is able to assert its interests and values on the international scene. Member States shall show mutual solidarity.

2.When the European Council or the Council has defined a common approach of the Union within the meaning of the first paragraph, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and the Ministers for Foreign Affairs of the Member States shall coordinate their activities within the Council.

3.The diplomatic missions of the Member States and the Union delegations in third countries and at international organisations shall cooperate and shall contribute to formulating and implementing the common approach.

and Here is Article 16 of the TFU as amended by Lisbon:

Article 16

Without prejudice to Article 3a of the Treaty on European Union or to Articles 73, 86 and 87 of this Treaty, Without prejudice to Articles 73, 86 and 87, and given the place occupied by services of general economic interest in the shared values of the Union as well as their role in promoting social and territorial cohesion, the Union Community and the Member States, each within their respective powers and within the scope of application of this Treaty, shall take care that such services operate on the basis of principles and conditions, particularly economic and financial conditions, which enable them to fulfil their missions. and conditions which enable them to fulfil their missions.The European Parliament and the Council, acting by means of regulations in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure, shall establish these principles and set these conditions without prejudice to the competence of Member States, in compliance with the Treaties, to provide, to commission and to fund such services.

[smiffy]

So you are 100% wrong

JFT!

[FutureTaoiseach]

So you are 100% wrong

JFT!

Wat.

[mmclo]

The consolidated text as published by the IEA following the numbering scheme set out in the Lisbon Treaty...do you think it's a step forward or back seen as that's how you put it. If the meeting is in public so are the documents obviously

[smiffy]

So you are 100% wrong

JFT!

Wat.

"FutureTaoiseach is being stupid again"

"JFT!" (Just Fancy That!)

[mmclo]

Just for those looking in, the Treaty of Lisbon ammends the TEU, The consolidated text is available here

http://www.iiea.com/images/managed/publ ... U_2008.pdf

Anybody who cares to look at Article 16.8 can make up their own mind as to whether the Council meeting in public under the treaties is "a recipe for a more secretive Europe"
or perhaps "will mean more openess in terms of proceedings on the Council of Ministers (FTs words)"


Also despite burning the midnght oil FT does not know what consolidated means or how the Lisbon Treaty sets out the scheme for renumbering (pssst...it's at the end)

we can add this clanger to his "EU will force us to have nuclear power" makes you kinda wonder about everything he says doesn't it[/url]