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Thread: Giscard D'Estaing (constitution founder) on Lisbon Treaty

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    Giscard D'Estaing (constitution founder) on Lisbon Treaty

    Quote Originally Posted by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing
    The difference between the original Constitution and the present Lisbon Treaty is one of approach, rather than content. The draft constitution resulted from a political desire to simplify European institutions, rendered inefficient by recent expansions. It was about creating more democracy and transparency within the European Union. It was about opening the way for a "Constitution for the people of Europe".

    These goals were reflected in the composition of the treaty-drafting Convention which brought together representatives from the European Parliament and national parliaments, from the governments of member states, as well as from the European Commission. The debates were very public. The resulting draft constitution was a new text and replaced all previous treaties.

    For the Treaty of Lisbon the process has been very different. It was the legal experts for the European Council who were charged with drafting the new text. They have not made any new suggestions. They have taken the original draft constitution, blown it apart into separate elements, and have then attached them, one by one, to existing treaties. The Treaty of Lisbon is thus a catalogue of amendments. It is unpenetrable for the public.

    In terms of content, the proposed institutional reforms – the only ones which mattered to the drafting Convention – are all to be found in the Treaty of Lisbon. They have merely been ordered differently and split up between previous treaties. There are, however, some differences. Firstly, the noun "constitution" and the adjective "constitutional" have been banished from the text, as though they describe something inadmissible. At the same time, all mention of the symbols of the EU have been suppressed, including the flag (which already flies everywhere), and the European anthem (Beethoven's Ode to Joy). However ridiculous they seem, these decisions are significant. They are intended to chase away any suggestion that Europe may one day have a formal political status. They sound a significant retreat from European political ambition.

    The concessions given to French opponents of the constitutional treaty are more symbolic than substantial. The expression "free and undistorted competition" has been taken out at the request of President Sarkozy. It reappears at the request of the British, in an annexed protocol to the new treaty which stipulates that "the internal market, such as is defined in Article 3 of the treaty, includes a system guaranteeing that competition is undistorted".

    Far more important are the concessions made to the British. The Charter of Fundamental Rights – an improved and updated version of the Charter of Human Rights – has been withdrawn from the draft treaty and made into a separate text, to which Britain will not be bound. In the area of judicial harmonisation and co-operation, Britain will have the right to duck in and out of the system as it pleases. Having already weakened all attempts at further European integration – such as by refusing the title of Minister for Foreign Affairs – Britain has also been allowed to be the odd man out whenever it feels like it.

    Otherwise, the proposals in the original constitutional treaty are practically unchanged. They have simply been dispersed through old treaties in the form of amendments. Why this subtle change? Above all, to head off any threat of referenda by avoiding any form of constitutional vocabulary.

    The Brussels institutions have also cleverly reclaimed the process from the – to them – unwelcome intrusion of parliamentarians and politicians in the work of the original drafting Convention. The institutions have re-imposed their language and their procedures – taking us even further away from ordinary citizens.

    Now comes the ratification process. There should not be any big problems – except in Britain where a referendum would obviously lead to a "No" vote. Elsewhere, the complexity of the new text, and the apparent surrender of all sweeping ambitions, should be enough to smooth over all difficulties.

    But lift the lid and look in the toolbox: all the same innovative and effective tools are there, just as they were carefully crafted by the European Convention: a stable Presidency; a streamlined Commission; a Parliament with genuine legislative rights; a Foreign Minister, even if he has been given another inadequate title; decisions taken by a double majority of governments and citizens; and the most advanced charter of fundamental rights in the world.

    When men and women with sweeping ambitions for Europe decide to make use of this treaty, they will be able to rekindle from the ashes of today the flame of a United Europe.

    The writer, a former French President (1974-81), was president of the Convention on the Future of Europe, which drafted a new constitution, 2002-03
    From the london Independant
    http://comment.independent.co.uk/commen ... 109902.ece


    I have highlighted some sections which I think are appropriate.
    [color=#4000FF]What part of [/color][color=#00BFFF]NO[/color][color=#4000FF] don't [/color][color=#00BFFF]EU[/color][color=#4000FF] understand?[/color]

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    Giscard had the grand title of President of the Convention on the Future of Europe. POCOFE you could call him.

    I don't remember voting him into that myself but then who are we to question our betters eh?

    I gather that after Lisbon there will be someone called the President of the European Council. (Which has a nice acronym - POTEC - that matches the US President's acronym used by insiders namely POTUS - President of the United States)

    It seems that none of us ordinary mortals will get the chance to vote for POTEC either though, so we will just have to grin and bear that.

    Given the recent very disparaging remarks about POCOFE (I mean Giscard, sorry, carried away) from some Yes campaigners here, should we be worried that the wise ones might choose the wrong person to be POTEC? No of course we shouldn't worry.

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    As Citizen says, d'Estaing was the guy who largely made the Constitution what it was - by adding in a load of flourishes and folderol. I'm sure he's not even slightly bitter that his pet changes didn't make the new cut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    It seems that none of us ordinary mortals will get the chance to vote for POTEC either though, so we will just have to grin and bear that.
    You don't get to vote for the Taoiseach either, and the Taoiseach has far more power. How come you're not complaining about that?
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    I do get to vote for my own government - no TDs = no government. I vote for TDs as do you. We, collectively as a national electorate, get who we vote for - all 165 of them - how they organise their division of roles I am happy to leave to them (as long as they stay within the Constitution). I also get to vote for our President. I even am lucky enough to have a Seanad vote which is something that I think should be universally shared.

    I do not get to vote for POTEC. My nation's electorate does not even collectively elect the people who do get to vote him/her into office. We cannot sack him if we think he is a turkey. He will know that.

    As executive power becomes ever more remote from ordinary voters it becomes ever more removed from popular control or accountability. You say the Taoiseach has way more power than POTEC? Maybe, maybe not - time and the issues of the day will tell. Where does power now reside on say the question of whether Irish schools should be required to pay water charges. Even the Taoiseach appeared not to know. If knowledge is power, how do we describe a Taoiseach who knows so little?

    You know all this of course, sorry to go on about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ibis
    As Citizen says, d'Estaing was the guy who largely made the Constitution what it was - by adding in a load of flourishes and folderol. I'm sure he's not even slightly bitter that his pet changes didn't make the new cut.
    I think it was UK MEP Gisela Stuart who declared that the stuff coming back to the Convention of a morning often bore little relation to what was agreed the previous evening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    I do get to vote for my own government - no TDs = no government. I vote for TDs as do you. We, collectively as a national electorate, get who we vote for - all 165 of them - how they organise their division of roles I am happy to leave to them (as long as they stay within the Constitution). I also get to vote for our President. I even am lucky enough to have a Seanad vote which is something that I think should be universally shared.

    I do not get to vote for POTEC. My nation's electorate does not even collectively elect the people who do get to vote him/her into office. We cannot sack him if we think he is a turkey. He will know that.

    As executive power becomes ever more remote from ordinary voters it becomes ever more removed from popular control or accountability. You say the Taoiseach has way more power than POTEC? Maybe, maybe not - time and the issues of the day will tell. Where does power now reside on say the question of whether Irish schools should be required to pay water charges. Even the Taoiseach appeared not to know. If knowledge is power, how do we describe a Taoiseach who knows so little?

    You know all this of course, sorry to go on about it.
    So, if the Taoiseach has no real power, is it OK for him to be corrupt? Or to put it another way - how ridiculous to stretch a point that far, simply to try and make it fit an agenda.

    Come on, Citizen, it's simple. You vote for the government, and the government appoints people like Ministers, Taoiseach, Tanaiste, heads of quangos and semi-states - and the EU's member governments between them do the same sort of appointing in the EU. Same old, same old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    I do get to vote for my own government - no TDs = no government.
    No government, no European Council. No European Council, no President of the European Council (please drop the 'POTEC' thing; it's not going to catch on).

    Do you get the point?

    You say the Taoiseach has way more power than POTEC? Maybe, maybe not - time and the issues of the day will tell. Where does power now reside on say the question of whether Irish schools should be required to pay water charges. Even the Taoiseach appeared not to know. If knowledge is power, how do we describe a Taoiseach who knows so little?
    Precisely what power do you think the President of the European Council will have? There's no 'maybe' about it. It's a simple statement of fact, which I suspect you already know which is why you're trying to throw in this rather vague stuff about 'knowledge is power'. Knowledge may well be power, but so too is legal authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by ibis
    You vote for the government, and the government appoints people like Ministers, Taoiseach, Tanaiste, heads of quangos and semi-states
    Well, you vote for the Dáil (and maybe the Seanad) which in turn votes for the Taoiseach etc. etc. It's a bit pedantic, but if we're picking people up on the specifics of how the Union operates, it's probably worth being precise on all points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trampas
    I think it was UK MEP Gisela Stuart who declared that the stuff coming back to the Convention of a morning often bore little relation to what was agreed the previous evening.
    Stuart is one seriously good MEP.
    'To attempt to rerun a referendum as a means of reversing the democratic decision taken by the people would be rightly regarded as an affront'. Dick Roche TD 21.12.01

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    Wow, that got sidetracked into a discussion on direct election of POTEC very quickly. I had hoped it would rather develop into a discussion of Lisbon vs Constitution and the blatant disrespect shown to the voters of the EU by the leaders that it showed.
    [color=#4000FF]What part of [/color][color=#00BFFF]NO[/color][color=#4000FF] don't [/color][color=#00BFFF]EU[/color][color=#4000FF] understand?[/color]

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