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About LinkBacksThat's, eh, somewhat different to what you said earlier.Originally Posted by draiocht23
That's, eh, somewhat different to what you said earlier.
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Yeah, apologies....That's, eh, somewhat different to what you said earlier.
ganley was impressive but if he can only contribute 6k -were does the rest come from - the govt per Mckenna judgment?
Other supporters.
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I don't claim to know much about the Treaty but what concerns me is that Ireland is the only country that will have a referendum. It strikes me as a bit suspicious that the Dutch and French have now binned this, considering the previous defeat they suffered with the EU Constitution Referendum. Nevermind, the British Labour position on it, having backtracked on a promise to have a vote on the issue.
According to numerous informed people, the Lisbon/Reform Treaty is pretty much a carbon copy of what was the Constitution. Here's what V Giscard D'Estaing, the former French President and Chairman of the Convention that drew up the Constitution had to say.
"The difference between the original Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty is one of approach, rather than content...The proposals in the original Constitutional Treaty are practically unchanged. They have simply been dispersed through the old treaties in the form of amendments. Why this subtle change? Above all, to head off any threat of referenda by avoiding any form of constitutional vocabulary. But lift the lid and look in the toolbox: all of the same innovative and effective tools are there."
Sadly, you're not alone there. I'd say one in ten/twenty have any idea about it at all.
Because, as we all well know and has been stated by the dutch, they're afraid the people will reject it again, and we can't have that, can we!
With the Dutch it was a clear cut rejection with 61% against 38% for and the French, whom many will claim were not voting on the constitution so much as they were against the government it was 55% against, 45% for and even if it was the case, why not allow them to vote again, everybody loves Sarkozy now, don't they?
Well for much the same reason I'd guess. That and the inevitable no vote, the Brits were never really in love with the EU anyway. It would be an awful blow to his Premiership too, which he's been dancing on eggshells with for a while.
Depends on who you ask. Some will say it's vastly different if they feel distancing the Reform Treaty/Lisbon Treaty from the Constitution will do any good and those who think that playing up the similarities will do some good will tell you it's exactly the same. It's worrying that an a piece of text which has been worked on my so many for so long and is so important can have more personalities than a ward full of Schizophrenics.
Though I did love Declan Ganley's quote on today FM during the week "they say it's shorter than the Constitution, it's not. It's actually ten thousand words longer, they just reduced the line spacing".
A poster of some consequence...
It's of no conern to me, just interesting how the No side react whenever anybody else gets a run even with oppenents...only need ot look back at a few threads here
It isn't News at One its "This Week". I only woke up today just when it was ending, but I got the impression that RTE was coming down on him very hard, in a way they might not if it had been a yes campaign person. I will have to listen to the whole programme when repeated later to verify this. One of the most annoying points put forward by the presenter was this idea that this is like the other referendums when we heard arguments against them. No it is not. This is the first EU treaty to have been rejected in 2 countries. That alone makes it different, and on its own it constitutes a strong argument for voting no, on the grounds that to do otherwise would be to force a rejected treaty on the French and Dutch peoples against their democratically-expressed wishes. Whatever some may want to say about Sarkozy having a mandate the same cannot be said about Balkenende on the specific issue of not having a referendum - indeed the govt of the Netherlands only decided very recently not to hold one. Apart from that, each EU treaty is different - just because we went a long way down the road of European integration does not obligate us to go the whole hog. The more we centralise power in the EU institutions, the less say we have at home, and the more we need the permission of France, Germany etc. to implement policies we want. That is an incontravertible reality, and is undermining to local democracy. This Treaty to all intents and purposes, turns Ireland from a country into a mere constituency, and consequently renders us almost powerless, especially with the loss of our automatic right to a Commissioner. The subservient constituency-mentality is apparent from the yes people when they rant about 'the majority of states' having agreed to this treaty and therefore we have to let it pass. Were we part of a single nation with the rest of the EU that point might have some merit - but we are presently not and as such we don't have to defer to what foreign govts do. In any case, as admitted by Sarko, if they had asked their own peoples they would have said no, so all is not as it seems there. We should vote no not because Europe is a bad thing - in fact I believe it is a good thing. Rather, we should vote no because on most issues, European integration has gone far enough. To take it much further as this treaty does, with effectively a Constitution in the form of a binding Charter and the elimination of almost all our remaining national vetoes, is to make Ireland an independent country in name only - a Province once again.
FT - whilst you're entitled to your opinion, you're going to have to stop dragging every Lisbon thread off topic to discuss specfific issues - stay on topic.
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Sorry but he was talking about Lisbon and its in the Lisbon section but I'll be more specific in future.
