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Thread: Lisbon’s military angle: a new mutual defence pact

  1. #1
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    Lisbon’s military angle: a new mutual defence pact

    The Lisbon Treaty commits Ireland to this new legal obligation:

    Article 28A.7
    If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

    There are two more sentences in that subsection of the treaty:

    “This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States. Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it,remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation.". (That form of words is not new - it first appeared in the Maastricht Treaty – despite Irish objections at the time about making a link in that Treaty between the EC and Nato.}

    The government line
    The government line now is that this promise has no effect on Ireland. They say that we are still ‘neutral’ or (as some government supporters on p.ie say) ‘non-aligned’

    In a long article about Irish soldiers’ duties in the new EU Battlegroups Minister for Defence O’Dea did not mention the new promise at all. Instead he emphasised what he called the obligations Ireland took on under the treaty of Amsterdam and the treaty of Nice. He said these led to the EU Battlegroups that are now in place.(Irish Times 2 Jan 08)

    What does this new promise mean?
    This is a new promise. It is not one that Ireland has ever made before to the EU member states. It is a promise that is written in the middle of the notoriously unreadable Lisbon text, but we need to be sure we understand it before we vote on it. It is different to what was in previous EU treaties but the government is not explaining what the new promise will mean.

    There are a couple of questions that might help to put the situation we are getting into into a practical context:


    - What is the effect of this new promise on Ireland?

    - What do the Battlegroups do if there is an attack on a member state?

    - Why does the Minister not tell us?


    ....

    More new provisions
    The new promise is in the part of the Treaty dealing with ‘Common Security and Defence Policy’. That section will have some more new provisions according to Lisbon:

    “The Common Security and Defence Policy will have a new section 2:

    ‘Section 2
    Provisions on the Common Security and Defence Policy…
    ‘1. The common security and defence policy shall be an integral part of the common foreign and security policy. It shall provide the Union with an operational capacity drawing on civilian and military assets. The Union may use them on missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter. The performance of these tasks shall be undertaken using capabilities provided by the Member States.’;

    ‘2. The common security and defence policy shall include the progressiveframing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.’;

    ‘3. Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy, to contribute to the objectives defined by the Council. Those Member States which together establish multinational forces may also make them available to the common security and defence policy. Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities. “
    ......

    EU becomes a military pact
    The EU sees itself as a kind of military pact. It has set up a military infrastructure. It has a military HQ which publishes its views on a section of the main EU website.The mutual aid promise in Lisbon is written in more absolute terms that the equivalent mutual aid promise contained in Art. 5 of the Nato Treaty. (In Nato it is specifically agreed that every Nato member can make its own decision about whether it will help if another member is attacked. That is left out of the EU Lisbon promise – government supporters on politics.ie say this is ok because decisions on how to respond to any attack have to be unanimous, and they say this cannot mean Ireland going to war – at least not unless the Dáil says so).

    Why is the government denying this?
    What is the government afraid of? Does it think that traditional Fianna Fáil support would not like to vote for a military pact? Does it think that people might not believe them when they say Ireland is still 'neutral' after Lisbon?
    'To attempt to rerun a referendum as a means of reversing the democratic decision taken by the people would be rightly regarded as an affront'. Dick Roche TD 21.12.01

  2. #2
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    what are FF so afraid of?
    Presumably another savaging at the hands of the "dead-sheep coalition" of Declan Ganley, Politics.ie, and other world-government conspiracy theorists

  3. #3
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    Starting new threads doesn't negate the answers given on other ones you know

    27.4 provides for unanimity on all these matters

    4. Decisions relating to the common security and defence policy, including those
    initiating a mission as referred to in this Article, shall be adopted by the Council acting
    unanimously
    on a proposal from the High Representative of the Union for Foreign
    Affairs and Security Policy or an initiative from a Member State. The High
    Representative may propose the use of both national resources and Union instruments,
    together with the Commission where appropriate.

    We have Title V covering the general principles.

    Chapter One - cross cutting - unanimity set out

    Chapter Two - specific provisions of CFSP - article 11
    The Union's competence in matters of common foreign and security policy shall
    cover all areas of foreign policy and all questions relating to the Union's security,
    including the progressive framing of a common defence policy that might lead to a
    common defence. The common foreign and security policy is subject to specific rules and procedures. It
    shall be defined and implemented by the European Council and the Council acting
    unanimously
    , except where the Treaties provide otherwise.

    Section Two: Common Security and Defence Policy (NB a subset of CFSP above)

    2. The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive
    framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence,
    when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case
    recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance
    with their respective constitutional requirements.";


    This is where article 29.4.9 of our constitution comes in..NB unanimity and repsect for members policies

    we've been through 27.4 and 7 I think

    27.7 sets out the mutual assistance clause and 27.4 which specifically mentions this article again re-affirms unanimity

  4. #4
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    Mmclo can I sum up what you say this way:

    Where the treaty says:

    If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

    it really means:

    If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall NOT have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

    Is that about it?

    If I was FF pro-treaty, I think I would be staying well away from this.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    Mmclo can I sum up what you say this way:

    Where the treaty says:

    If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

    it really means:

    If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall NOT have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

    Is that about it?

    If I was FF pro-treaty, I think I would be staying well away from this.
    No you can read the text of the treaty we are voting on which I have quoted...count the amount of times it says unanimity

  6. #6
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    I have read it. I just don't know what you are saying it means -

    does it mean we have an obligation

    or

    does it mean we do not have an obligation?

    in your opinion.

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  7. #7
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    Its just repeating what our commitment is under the UN already so whats the problem?
    Ireland interests are best secured within a more dynamic EU. Vote YES to Lisbon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    I have read it. I just don't know what you are saying it means -

    does it mean we have an obligation

    or

    does it mean we do not have an obligation?

    in your opinion.
    A commitment fulfilled through unanimity, not my opinion it's in the text. The one that people are saying is unreadable elsewhere

    4. Decisions relating to the common security and defence policy, including those
    initiating a mission as referred to in this Article, shall be adopted by the Council acting
    unanimously

  9. #9
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    So does it mean (a) we have an obligation

    or

    does it mean (b) we do not have an obligation?

    An a or a b will do.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    So does it mean (a) we have an obligation

    or

    does it mean (b) we do not have an obligation?

    An a or a b will do.
    Fulfilled through unanimity...unlike several others fulfilled through QMV, all treaties involve obligations believe it or not

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