EU Treaty - what are we voting on?

[FutureTaoiseach]

Nothing can become EU law without getting past the EU Commission.

Yes but how many laws can it pass on it's own?

On its own - none. But nothing can become EU law without the Commission's consent. If we lose our Commissioner as under Lisbon we lose our say on the EU's executive which proposes all EU laws. The Commission is the only EU institution in which the small countries like Ireland have equality with the Big States. Let's not give it up.

[ibis]

Nothing can become EU law without getting past the EU Commission.

Yes but how many laws can it pass on it's own?

On its own - none. But nothing can become EU law without the Commission's consent. If we lose our Commissioner as under Lisbon we lose our say on the EU's executive which proposes all EU laws. The Commission is the only EU institution in which the small countries like Ireland have equality with the Big States. Let's not give it up.

So there will be no horse-trading whatsoever, you believe? Bearing in mind that each country will have its turn without a Commissioner?

I'm afraid the argument that because there is no Irish Commissioner on the Commission, Ireland will simply be ignored, is essentially hogwash. No known committee works that way.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Nothing can become EU law without getting past the EU Commission.

Yes but how many laws can it pass on it's own?

On its own - none. But nothing can become EU law without the Commission's consent. If we lose our Commissioner as under Lisbon we lose our say on the EU's executive which proposes all EU laws. The Commission is the only EU institution in which the small countries like Ireland have equality with the Big States. Let's not give it up.

So there will be no horse-trading whatsoever, you believe? Bearing in mind that each country will have its turn without a Commissioner?

I'm afraid the argument that because there is no Irish Commissioner on the Commission, Ireland will simply be ignored, is essentially hogwash. No known committee works that way.

You are very naive if you hold the view that Ireland being totally unrepresented on the body all EU legislation originates from is of no consequence.

[kim chi]

"what are we voting on?"

I'm voting on Mass Immigration, and I'm voting NO to Mass Immigration!

[ibis]

Nothing can become EU law without getting past the EU Commission.

Yes but how many laws can it pass on it's own?

On its own - none. But nothing can become EU law without the Commission's consent. If we lose our Commissioner as under Lisbon we lose our say on the EU's executive which proposes all EU laws. The Commission is the only EU institution in which the small countries like Ireland have equality with the Big States. Let's not give it up.

So there will be no horse-trading whatsoever, you believe? Bearing in mind that each country will have its turn without a Commissioner?

I'm afraid the argument that because there is no Irish Commissioner on the Commission, Ireland will simply be ignored, is essentially hogwash. No known committee works that way.

You are very naive if you hold the view that Ireland being totally unrepresented on the body all EU legislation originates from is of no consequence.

It is a rotating representation, not non-representation. That means someone who is in while we're out will be out while we're in. If you can't see what that means, I'm happy to explain it.

[FutureTaoiseach]

[quote=ibis]

Nothing can become EU law without getting past the EU Commission.

Yes but how many laws can it pass on it's own?

On its own - none. But nothing can become EU law without the Commission's consent. If we lose our Commissioner as under Lisbon we lose our say on the EU's executive which proposes all EU laws. The Commission is the only EU institution in which the small countries like Ireland have equality with the Big States. Let's not give it up.

So there will be no horse-trading whatsoever, you believe? Bearing in mind that each country will have its turn without a Commissioner?

I'm afraid the argument that because there is no Irish Commissioner on the Commission, Ireland will simply be ignored, is essentially hogwash. No known committee works that way.

You are very naive if you hold the view that Ireland being totally unrepresented on the body all EU legislation originates from is of no consequence.

It is a rotating representation, not non-representation. That means someone who is in while we're out will be out while we're in. If you can't see what that means, I'm happy to explain it.[/quote:2b0xzvb6]

For 1/3rd of member states at any one time, it will mean non-representation. 5 whole yrs without a Commissioner. Too long for my liking with bureaucrats like Commissioner Kovacz going on about a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base.

[ibis]

[quote=FutureTaoiseach][quote=ibis]

Nothing can become EU law without getting past the EU Commission.

Yes but how many laws can it pass on it's own?

On its own - none. But nothing can become EU law without the Commission's consent. If we lose our Commissioner as under Lisbon we lose our say on the EU's executive which proposes all EU laws. The Commission is the only EU institution in which the small countries like Ireland have equality with the Big States. Let's not give it up.

So there will be no horse-trading whatsoever, you believe? Bearing in mind that each country will have its turn without a Commissioner?

I'm afraid the argument that because there is no Irish Commissioner on the Commission, Ireland will simply be ignored, is essentially hogwash. No known committee works that way.

You are very naive if you hold the view that Ireland being totally unrepresented on the body all EU legislation originates from is of no consequence.

It is a rotating representation, not non-representation. That means someone who is in while we're out will be out while we're in. If you can't see what that means, I'm happy to explain it.[/quote:2mueanf7]

For 1/3rd of member states at any one time, it will mean non-representation. 5 whole yrs without a Commissioner. Too long for my liking with bureaucrats like Commissioner Kovacz going on about a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base.[/quote:2mueanf7]

To some extent I agree - I would prefer to see a shorter term, maybe 2 years.

However, bear in mind that there is an alternative, and it's already in use - the committee structure. The Commission is currently doing business by forming sub-committees, in the same manner as the Dáil. Apart from being even less transparent, it has exactly the same side-effects you're worried about here - Ireland (and other countries) are not represented on every committee.

Either way, it's a natural result of having such a large decision-making body. I prefer the mechanism proposed by the Treaty, since it is formal, transparent, and the quid-pro-quo is obvious.

[FutureTaoiseach]

[quote=ibis][quote=FutureTaoiseach][quote=ibis]

Nothing can become EU law without getting past the EU Commission.

Yes but how many laws can it pass on it's own?

On its own - none. But nothing can become EU law without the Commission's consent. If we lose our Commissioner as under Lisbon we lose our say on the EU's executive which proposes all EU laws. The Commission is the only EU institution in which the small countries like Ireland have equality with the Big States. Let's not give it up.

So there will be no horse-trading whatsoever, you believe? Bearing in mind that each country will have its turn without a Commissioner?

I'm afraid the argument that because there is no Irish Commissioner on the Commission, Ireland will simply be ignored, is essentially hogwash. No known committee works that way.

You are very naive if you hold the view that Ireland being totally unrepresented on the body all EU legislation originates from is of no consequence.

It is a rotating representation, not non-representation. That means someone who is in while we're out will be out while we're in. If you can't see what that means, I'm happy to explain it.[/quote:1t7yxja6]

For 1/3rd of member states at any one time, it will mean non-representation. 5 whole yrs without a Commissioner. Too long for my liking with bureaucrats like Commissioner Kovacz going on about a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base.[/quote:1t7yxja6]

To some extent I agree - I would prefer to see a shorter term, maybe 2 years.

However, bear in mind that there is an alternative, and it's already in use - the committee structure. The Commission is currently doing business by forming sub-committees, in the same manner as the Dáil. Apart from being even less transparent, it has exactly the same side-effects you're worried about here - Ireland (and other countries) are not represented on every committee.

Either way, it's a natural result of having such a large decision-making body. I prefer the mechanism proposed by the Treaty, since it is formal, transparent, and the quid-pro-quo is obvious.[/quote:1t7yxja6]

It is unacceptable.

[ibis]

To some extent I agree - I would prefer to see a shorter term, maybe 2 years.

However, bear in mind that there is an alternative, and it's already in use - the committee structure. The Commission is currently doing business by forming sub-committees, in the same manner as the Dáil. Apart from being even less transparent, it has exactly the same side-effects you're worried about here - Ireland (and other countries) are not represented on every committee.

Either way, it's a natural result of having such a large decision-making body. I prefer the mechanism proposed by the Treaty, since it is formal, transparent, and the quid-pro-quo is obvious.

It is unacceptable.

I already knew you thought that. I don't doubt your conviction for a moment. Your arguments are extremely weak, though, and seem to be based on misinterpreting the Treaty and extrapolating from there based on your feelings.

[mmclo]

Well presumably Mr. kovacs will have to have his term on the bench FT but only if you vote yes!

let me ask you this...how succesful has having one commissioner been in resisting your CCCTB given all the proposals have come from the commission and it acts collectively?

it appears to me the main resistence to this has been in the IGC and frrom ministers, so why are you so worked up about the commission which you now accept can make no law in isolatio

the istitutions work in a balanced way under the community method since the 1950s

countries have to negotiate and use their diplomatic skills , ireland is known for this you don,t get all you want all the time, the real skill is to get most of it