EU Treaty - what are we voting on?

[FutureTaoiseach]

Paddy Power are not taking bets on the Lisbon "treaty" referendum and WON'T be taking bets.

They refused to take bets on the Citizenship referendum because they knew well which way it would go. Looks they know again and they're still not in the business of giving money away for nothing.

Oh and what way do they think it will go?

They reckon that when the battlebuses and the war-rooms of all relevant political parties get up and running then a "yes" vote is a foregone conclusion. They are "betting" that the NO side will be incapable of the necessary levels of organisation that might swing it the other way.

Then they are in for a nasty shock. They had very long-odds indeed on a FF-Green-PD govt.

[Twin Towers]

Paddy Power are not taking bets on the Lisbon "treaty" referendum and WON'T be taking bets.

They refused to take bets on the Citizenship referendum because they knew well which way it would go. Looks they know again and they're still not in the business of giving money away for nothing.

Oh and what way do they think it will go?

Follow the money FT, always follow the money. Do you imagine Paddy Power would want to be advertising what they think are the true odds of Lisbon being passed in all their shop windows. Do you suppose they would be allowed? Will any Irish bookies be taking wagers?

[FutureTaoiseach]

[quote=Twin Towers]

Paddy Power are not taking bets on the Lisbon "treaty" referendum and WON'T be taking bets.

They refused to take bets on the Citizenship referendum because they knew well which way it would go. Looks they know again and they're still not in the business of giving money away for nothing.

Oh and what way do they think it will go?

Follow the money FT, always follow the money. Do you imagine Paddy Power would want to be advertising what they think are the true odds of Lisbon being passed in all their shop windows. Do you suppose they would be allowed? Will any Irish bookies be taking wagers?[/quote:2k4lydly]

They got the outcome of the GE wrong. Including having McDowell hold his seat. Support for the Treaty has almost halved since 2005. The fact this treaty has been rejected in 2 countries (albeit under a different name) will not go unnoticed by the electorate. I'm glad our betting-shops don't choose the govt. Furthermore its 6 months to go to a referendum, so there is plenty of time for the odds to shorten. And fat lot of good the money is doing the Giuliani campaign in the US with him sliding in the polls over there and even behind Huckabee in some of them in spite of the Huckabee campaign having probably less than one tenth of the Giuliani campaign to spend.

[colgan]

The Institute of European Affairs in Ireland has produced a consolidated text of the Treaties, incorporating the Reform Treaty it is available on their website to download for free,

[forest]

what people seem to forget is that two countries passed it by referendum and 18 countries have ratified it.

That leaves 9 states left.

I dont like the treaty I didn’t like the original constitution I thought about voting to reject it
I dont like negotiating these things and I dont like the way a No vote is seen as anti EU.
after the referenda in France and the Netherlands failed. They the powers that be took all the good parts out and resigned it.
The new treaty i am not a fan of for a number of reasons including irelands opt out of the justice aspects which I think its a disgrace
But if i reject the treaty and the referenda fails do you think the government will have an other vote with that in
NO

[beardyboy]

The EU Constitution is a summary of the five? EU treaties signed since 1972; much of it is already implemented. Rejection by the voters of France and Holland has not slowed it's progress.

....copy & paste....

In summary, the EU Constitution is similar to the old Soviet Union’s and builds a dictatorship. It starts with human rights platitudes, then conceals its destruction of democracy in its massive 465 pages; while the EU's Corpus Juris legal system steals our rights. Harmonising our laws with the
EU over 33 years has given us the laws of a police state, ready for the EU to enforce. The EU’s 111,000 regulations will control our personal lives more closely than were Soviet Citizens. The EU will become our state, and as a result Ireland will be abolished as a state.

Source for the above. No idea why beardyboy didn't cite it.

No need

[mmclo]

I-6 EU Constitution and law has primacy over member states. Abolishes the Irish Constitution and the primacy of the Dail

Supremacy of EU law has been there since we joined

I-9-2 Accepts the EU Convention on Protection of Human Rights, but not if it affects the EU's powers.

Nonsense made crystal clear that it applies to the Institutions

I-10. We will start with both EU and national citizenship. Yes, the EU is to be a nation in its own right.

?? must be a citizen of a members state to be EU citizen

I-12 Member states may not compete with the EU's powers ("competencies").

The division of competencies is set out in the doc.

I-12-2 In shared powers, member nations may not exercise power unless the EU allows it.

I-12-4 The EU has power over defence. (Notice the repetitions below - the EU demands military power)

No it expressly talks about the potential for this in the future

I-13 The EU has absolute power on: customs, rules on the single market, monetary policy, fishing, commerce, an
international agreements, eg treaties. (Absolute power = exclusive competencies)

Yes and has had for decades

I-15 Members must make their employment, social and economic policies comply with the EU's.

The open method of co-ordination, essentially voluntary co-ordination

I-16-1 The EU has absolute power over foreign policy, security and defence.

Like in Iraq when there were 5 or 6 different positions by the member states

I-16-2 All states shall comply with 16-1. So Westminster has no powers unless the EU grants them.

Westminster?? I’m an Irish citizen me…don’t have to cut and paste my arguments form the brits

I-18. If the Constitution forgot powers to achieve its ends, the Council of Ministers shall add them. The EU will have absolute power; the Dail will have no powers of its own; as the EU will clearly have the power to close the Dail whenever it so decrees.

On Mondays and Fridays…hillarious

I-19 Institutions: The Council of Ministers ("The Council") controls all EU Parliament legislation.

Actually co-decision means the EP can vote down the council

I-20 Maximum 750 EU MPs, (MEPs) five year term. Minimum 6, maximum 96, per State.

Maybe we should have 2,000 that would get things done

I-21 The EU Council, consisting of Heads of State, shall direct the EU and its foreign policy.

And??

I-23 The Council of Ministers, one per state, shall direct legislative and budgetary functions.

I thought it was the unelected beauracrats

I-26 The EU Commission is the executive.
I-26-7 The Commission has absolute power. It's only accountability is a censure vote from Parliament.

But you just said the council had…oh never mind

I-27-1 The Council chooses the President of the Commission, parliament merely ratifies it.

Parliament has rejected the entire commission before, please keep up

I-27-2 The Council of Ministers appoints Commissioners. Parliament has no say. There is no democracy in the Commission, it is a dictatorship. Only the Commission may propose legislation, MEPs function is merely to push buttons to approve the Commission’s legislation. The EU Parliament, (the only vote we will have left,) is a sham. It's the Soviet system.

The commission has no powers to make laws and has been dismissed in its entirety by the EP

I-33 -36 EU laws, decisions and regulations are binding on member states, and enforced by the EU.

Whats new there

I-41 Re-confirms military control. (Formerly French and British nuclear weapons will be controlled by EU dictators.)

I can’t wait

I-4I-3 Each nation is to build up its armed forces. They clearly want the EU to be a military power.

No need sure we’ll have the bomb

I-43 The EU has the power to mobilise the military assets of all States when it declares an emergency.

Yes I prefer pea shooters to carry out peacekeeping in Bosnia etc.

I-46-4 "The principal of representative democracy" "Political parties at the European level contribute to EU awareness and express the wishes of citizens." Our Lib-Lab-Con parties will be replaced by EU wide parties with names like Party of European Socialists (PES), and European Peoples Party (EPP).

Poitical parties…how undemocratic

I-47-4 Petitions: One million citizens from many countries (ie with difficulty) may merely invite the Commission to propose that the Constitution be implemented. ie, we can only agree. Soviet style.

Yes that petition requesting the Gulag was a doozy

I-50. Only the Council sometimes, and Parliament, shall meet in public. (All others meet in secret.)

Those two unimportant institutions

I-59-3 If there is just a "clear risk" of a State breaching I-2 (Human rights), the EU can suspend that State's rights (including voting), but its obligations to the EU remain. (Designed for abuse!)

??

I-60 "Any State may decide to withdraw from the EU". But terms will be decided by the Council (they keep our gas, fishing, currency reserves, armed forces?). Requires agreement by the EU Parliament. Article III-325 3 puts more steps in the way. A qualified majority is 72% of the Council. Like Hungary, we can never leave.

That was fun…why would we want to leave with a party like this going on all the time

[FutureTaoiseach]

what people seem to forget is that two countries passed it by referendum and 18 countries have ratified it.

That leaves 9 states left.

I dont like the treaty I didn’t like the original constitution I thought about voting to reject it
I dont like negotiating these things and I dont like the way a No vote is seen as anti EU.
after the referenda in France and the Netherlands failed. They the powers that be took all the good parts out and resigned it.
The new treaty i am not a fan of for a number of reasons including irelands opt out of the justice aspects which I think its a disgrace
But if i reject the treaty and the referenda fails do you think the government will have an other vote with that in
NO

So in other words you're against it but you'll vote for it? It's your decision but the word that's going around among commentators at present is that unlike Nice, a rejection this time would probably not lead to another referendum on the same thing. I think it's a special case because it has already been rejected by the French and Dutch publics. Democracy matters more than how 'we are seen'. The reality is that the political Euroelite's opinion of Ireland is irrelevant to me. A no vote will force the Brussels bureaucrats to stop riding roughshod over public opinion and actually listen to critical and cautious voices that favour the EU but now feel that with this treaty it is losing it's way. Declan Ganley was in favour of Nice but he is against Lisbon. A lot of people who supported the Euro for example oppose this treaty. Because there is a big difference between supporting a trading area with a single currency and environmental cooperation on the one hand, and going the whole hog to a European superstate with almost no national vetos together with an EU Constitution overriding national ones and as the icing on the cake a mutual defence pact and the loss of a Commissioner.

Voting no will send a message to Brussels that we will protect our independence against their imperial ambitions and the attempted power-grab by the big states.

[mmclo]

protect our independence against their imperial ambitions and the attempted power-grab by the big states.

How can it be a power grab if they are loosing two commisioners in some cases??

[ibis]

protect our independence against their imperial ambitions and the attempted power-grab by the big states.

How can it be a power grab if they are loosing two commisioners in some cases??

Even though they are losing two commissioners, the thing that makes it a 'land grab' is that Ireland will lose Ireland's one.

Come on, now, mmclo, it's not rocket science. It's not even arithmetic.