Im sure we have Election fraud.

[Kev408]

EU treaty is a constitution, says Giscard d'Estaing - Europe, World - The Independent
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, one of the architects of the EU constitution:
“M. Giscard d'Estaing said: "In the Treaty of Lisbon, the tools are largely the same. Only the order in which they are arranged in the tool-box has been changed. Admittedly, the box itself is an old model, which you have to rummage through in order to find what you are looking for."
M. Giscard d'Estaing said references to the constitution had been removed "above all to head off any threat of referenda by avoiding any form of constitutional vocabulary".
He said: "When the day comes that men and women with sweeping ambitions for Europe decide to make use of this treaty, they will be able to rekindle from the ashes of today the flame of a United Europe."

The same treaty the French and Dutch rejected. The same treaty that the British would no doubt throw out the window if they got a chance to express their democratic right. So far, tens of millions have rejected closer European integration, Kev.
Deny people a vote and then say, “well, how do you know the majority would have opposed it if we didn’t give them a chance to have a say?” It just doesn’t wash Kev and you know it.
Sarkozy said France would reject the treaty if it was put to a vote and that why he insists that these sorts of reforms should be the remit of parliaments and not referendums. Just listen to the little twerp.
YouTube - Nigel Farage exposes Sarkozy

I asked for links to proof that the majority of Europeans are against integration. You gave me a link to some guy which added nothing to your point. You also referred to a man who recently defended a man for drugging a child and raping her anally. I think his credibility is somewhat shot.

In effect, and with all due respect, you've just spouted the very thing you despise - empty rhetoric.

[advertismo]

Even if there was fraud (which must have been true on some level), there is no way it would have changed the final outcome.

Some people have made the point that the anti-Lisbon mood prevalent this time around was merely indicative of the 'angry man' syndrome, and was not reflected in public opinion generally, but I don't think anyone can deny there was more of it this time around than last May.
And, whether or not an 'anger vote' at the government is a good idea to vote against the treaty everyone was sure that there would be one, but there was no sign of it in the results.

The consistency of the 'swing' vote in nearly every region is, quite simply, incredible.
The margin of victory is incredible.
Incredible in the literal sense of the word, before the smart-ar'ses try their jokes.

Ever since the impetus for universal suffrage there has been a corresponding movement to subvert democracy.
So what is not incredible is that a referendum such as this, with the weight of an increasingly autocratic EU behind it, and the full support of all the major parties - two of which are quite clearly only playing the role of 'opposition' - would be rigged.

Lisbon I, nobody was surprised when it failed, except the government, because, as I asserted at the time and still believe, they had thrown what they though would be just enough fillers into the boxes to copperfasten their desired result.
There was genuine shock, but only from them, the next day when the results were apparent.
This time 'round they took no chances.

I can fully understand that my reputation on this site, such as it is & not that I care, is nil for making these statements. I usually only come on here to either make smutty jokes or vent some anger at whatever contemporaneous govt. shenanigans are going on, but I don't assume false masks, or try to manipulate discussions or people's opinions with lies or half-truths.
There are lots of people who I'd disagree with but give their due.
There are also a large number of genuinely nasty b'st'rds who post here.
The last few days have seen a surge of new members; a lot of what seem to be Cóir-membes telling lies about the EU, and at least as many FF pro-Lisboners; of the really nasty variety. I suspect that there are a lot of 'returns' who haven't posted here since their days of trying to defend Bertie during Mahon, only now they've learned how to curse.

Is there even one pro-Lisbon individual out there who'd accept that there was, at least some, manipulation of the referendum ? Anyone at all, who is thus immune from accusations of Cóir or Lbertas membership (not that anyone connected with Libertas seems to echoe fraud-allegations)?

Throw all he sh'yte jokes, tinfoil-hat pictures, crying baby pictures at this you like, and perhaps in-between we might get at least a few reasonable responses.

[Almanac]

I tended to be dismissive of possible fraud but on reflection I'm not at all so sure now.

Even before the vote I had heard from a putatively reliable source that yes vote ballot papers had been pre-prepared. Also that postal votes had been solicited. This latter claim rests on good authority.

I have heard various first-hand reports of extremely lax security not just at Cork but also in Dublin. No garda presence. Unmonitored polling stations. Transfer of ballot boxes without a garda escort.

Not that I am disputing the result. That's not the point. A Yes victory was not unexpected. But the scale of the victory is very difficult to explain. I can tell you that it does not tally with my first-hand experience of weeks of canvassing door to door. This experience reflects that of canvassers across the country. I encountered whole corporation estates where not a single person indicated a Yes preference. And yet constituencies where there is a working class majority supposedly voted Yes.

Even in the last few days, canvassing on O Connell St, a majority appeared to be No. This observation came not from me, although it matched my own experience, but from a Generation Yes campaigner, which was based on the responses he'd received.

No campaigners were much more prominent online and on the radio, anywhere where space was cleared for their input. Granted, this in itself proves nothing but it does indicate that they were very active. The No side canvassed much more and far earlier than the Yes side. The No side produced more leaflets and got more leaflets to the people. The No side dominated the internet. 365,000 copies of a widely acclaimed free newspaper- The Sovereign Independent- were distributed to the public, and this was a new initiative which didn't influence last year's result. Yet, this supposedly made no measurable impact on the outcome.

The referendum result also marks a gap between Yes and No voters which is greater than all the professional polls conducted when you exclude the don't knows. Polls conducted close to the vote- MRBI, Red C actually indicated a gain in the No side and a decrease in support for the Yes side, yet the result showed no trace of this change. Rather supposedly the gap suddenly widened, an occurrence which goes completely against the trajectory of the polls conducted since January, which all marked a gradual decline in Yes support.

Campaign leaders such as Joe Costello actually admitted days before the referendum that despite their best efforts, the No side was in ascendancy, and appeared to be winning, outside Dublin. Yet again the reverse appeared to be reflected in the referendum.

So, on reflection, I do find the result suspicious. Given the highly lax security, the pre-vote claims, and the scale of the victory, I think there are reasonable grounds to be suspicious, to put it mildly.

[Kev408]

I've never seen (a tiny majority of people) make such fools of themselves with their asinine allegations of fraud. Talk about sore losers.

[mothball]

I asked for links to proof that the majority of Europeans are against integration. You gave me a link to some guy which added nothing to your point. You also referred to a man who recently defended a man for drugging a child and raping her anally. I think his credibility is somewhat shot.

In effect, and with all due respect, you've just spouted the very thing you despise - empty rhetoric.

The yes campaign is over, Kev. You can ease up on the character assassinations of people who say things you don't like to hear and actually discuss the points. Both men I quoted are people who desperately wanted a yes vote. The Irish Times made a big deal of getting d'Estaing’s opinion on the need for the Lisbon treaty. Sarkozy was welcomed into this country with open arms by the media and government.

In my previous post I pointed out a couple of things. Sarkozy didn't differentiate between the European Constitution and the Lisbon treaty at all. He also goes on to say that he prefers parliaments to make decisions on EU matters and this is the reason he gives for not allowing France a second vote.

As for Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, he helped write the damn document. He said that they are the same and that the people of Europe will end up accepting things that they would not accept if they realised what the constitution/treaty was about.

[Kev408]

The yes campaign is over, Kev. You can ease up on the character assassinations of people who say things you don't like to hear and actually discuss the points. Both men I quoted are people who desperately wanted a yes vote. The Irish Times made a big deal of getting d'Estaing’s opinion on the need for the Lisbon treaty. Sarkozy was welcomed into this country with open arms by the media and government.

In my previous post I pointed out a couple of things. Sarkozy didn't differentiate between the European Constitution and the Lisbon treaty at all. He also goes on to say that he prefers parliaments to make decisions on EU matters and this is the reason he gives for not allowing France a second vote.

As for Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, he helped write the damn document. He said that they are the same and that the people of Europe will end up accepting things that they would not accept if they realised what the constitution/treaty was about.

Good post. Btw Sarkozy was welcome here before he defended the paedo Polanski. So where is your link proving that the majority of Europeans are anti-integration? You don't have one do you? Empty rhetoric.

[imokyrok]

The polls are a better indication than canvassing. When you're canvassing many people tell you what they think will get them away from the door faster. Also think of how most people behave in a restaurant when a waiter comes over to ask "is every thing OK?" Most people will go "yes, lovely thank you" even if if they've been disapointed. It's human nature not to make a fuss unless really exercised about something.

The gap was a lot bigger than I'd expected but mainly because I was stunned at the previous vote and wasn't prepared to hope for a significant change. If anyone has any definite proof that there was vote manipulation though bring it to the attention of the authorities. I can't see it being significant because to have an impact on a referendum it would have to be countrywide and that would require a massive conspiracy that would be impossible to cover up.

[mothball]

Good post. Btw Sarkozy was welcome here before he defended the paedo Polanski. So where is your link proving that the majority of Europeans are anti-integration? You don't have one do you? Empty rhetoric.

Where is my link to the results of all those referenda which have been denied to the people of Europe? Well, Kev, I'd love to provide it, but you see there are a bunch of jumped up, undemocratic maggots running the EU at the moment and they thought it would be a good idea to ignore the will of the people when most of the ones they asked decided to go against them.
Your argument comes down to a point of saying, "the people didn't have the chance to voice their opinion so they don't have an opinion ". You're a real piece of work.

So what I can say is that the majority of the people asked about this European Constitution/Lisbon treaty have resoundingly rejected it. I'll stick with that and any person who believes in democracy will agree with me. More people rejected it than accepted it. That alone shows how undemocratic the decisions surrounding this treaty are. I wouldn't expect you agree.

[Didimus]

I tended to be dismissive of possible fraud but on reflection I'm not at all so sure now.

Even before the vote I had heard from a putatively reliable source that yes vote ballot papers had been pre-prepared. Also that postal votes had been solicited. This latter claim rests on good authority.

Putatively reliable. Good authority.
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If you are, mines a pint of plain.
It's your only man.

[Almanac]

The polls are a better indication than canvassing. When you're canvassing many people tell you what they think will get them away from the door faster. Also think of how most people behave in a restaurant when a waiter comes over to ask "is every thing OK?" Most people will go "yes, lovely thank you" even if if they've been disapointed. It's human nature not to make a fuss unless really exercised about something.

The gap was a lot bigger than I'd expected but mainly because I was stunned at the previous vote and wasn't prepared to hope for a significant change. If anyone has any definite proof that there was vote manipulation though bring it to the attention of the authorities. I can't see it be significant because to have an impact on a referendum it would have to be countrywide and that would require a massive conspiracy that would be impossible to cover up.

Yes and the point is that the gap was much larger than in the polls and that the polls indicated a trajectory in the opposite direction- an increase in No support in recent weeks and a gradual decline in Yes support since February.